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A new generation of outboards? ...

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/28/2004 : 10:07:29

Hi everyone,

One of the most frequent topics on this Forum is that of outboard motors ... which one is best, how to mount them, etc. etc. Because of tougher emissions standards the industry is trying to clean up their engines, and states like California are taking steps to ban older engines that do a lot of polluting. There seems to be a new technology coming, and I was wondering if any of y'all know much about it.

Last week my best friend was visiting San Antonio ... he is from Massachusetts, and he was more than happy to escape the deep freeze in the Northeast. He also owns a Hunter 37.5, and I "blame" him for getting me involved in sailboats. We decided to go to the San Antonio Boat Show ... what a bust ... not a SINGLE sailboat there ... not even a photo! Anyway, we stopped to talk to a salesman about a Mercury outboard that was on display, and he had some very interesting things to say about it.

Believe me, I didn't really want to talk to a salesman about anything ... especially a new outboard that I can't possibly afford to buy. Nevertheless, the more I looked at the diagram of this particular engine, the more questions I had about it. It turns out that this new design is a two-stroke engine, but (according to the salesman) it is about as quiet as a four-stroke, AND it is almost as environmentally friendly as a four-stroke ... in fact (again, according to the salesman) this engine DOES comply with the new strict regulations in California, even though it is technically a two-stroke.

The thing I remember most about the design is that the oil is NOT premixed with the fuel ... it is injected into the cylinder (around the piston rings as I recall). There was also something he said that was unique about the fuel ... it is "atomized" or something like that as it is injected into the cylinder. BTW, this particular technology isn't available in Mercury's smaller outboards yet, and the salesman didn't know when (or if) Mercury would make outboards the size we need for our boats with this technology.

Comments?

Buzz Maring

~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68
Lake Dallas, TX

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 10:43:10

This is the first I've heard of the new design, but it makes sense. It sounds like it uses fuel injection for fuel efficiency, and it injects lubricating oil directly into the rings, where it is needed, instead of burning the oil in the combustion chamber, where only some of it lubricates the engine parts, and some of it is burned and pollutes the air with its exhaust. If it finds its way into small engines, it might give us a motor with the light weight, reliability and other advantages of the 2 cycle, and the convenience, efficiency and ecological cleanliness of a 4 cycle. Isn't technology wonderful!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2004 : 13:00:05

I remember reading/seeing something recently about a new development in two-stroke motors in that the crankcase was separated from the fuel intake by the use of a rubber-like membrane. With the crankcase and intake separated, oil doesn't need to be mixed with gas for lubrication. Additionally, this membrane, with it's in and out motion, provides the necessary vacuum and compression to move the intake and exhaust gases through the motor.

Interesting stuff!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 21:26:21

Each of the 2-stroke outboard makers is doing some kind of new high-pressure fuel injection and oil injection systems to cut emissions--even Yamaha, and they are probably the leader in 4-strokes right now. I suspect that the advantage in brute-force reliability of 2-strokes over 4-strokes is going to diminish as these technological advances (read "complexity") overtake the 2-stroke field. It ain't gonna be your good ole chainsaw motor anymore.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 21:50:23

There is more to consider in the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate than hydro carbon emmisions. The other serious emmision of a 2 stroke is noise. 4 strokes exhaust their spent fuel by a compression stroke of the piston and because of the compression ability, it can be muffled far more effieciently than a 2 stroke which needs a much freer running exhaust.

I'm willing to bet that some if not most of the lakes that have banned PWCs have done so primarily because of noise pollution. Other reasons may be given... but I'm betting that noise is the big issue.

Model airplane motors have gone 4 stroke too... and are far quieter than 2 stroke. In fact, electric powered models have become popular because many flying fields have been lost due to noise. Electrics can fly in small areas such as public parks and because the make virtually no noise... they don't offend.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 01:34:05

Two strokes are not totally out of the picture here in California. Grandfathering in existing 2 strokes will guarrantee that we will see these reliable motors for a very long time. However don't try to purchace a new 2 stroke in about 4 years, they will need to pass the test from

. There are only a few lakes that won't allow two strokes at this time but that will change. The very nature of a two stroke exhausts unburnt oil and fuel into the water and no matter how you carberate or inject somebody will develope a better sampler that will measure parts per bazillion and somebody else will discover an even smaller creature that is adversely effected. I am not bitter about this, I purchased a 4 stroke. Even 4 strokes have been given a hard time at one local lake that supplies the city of Modesto with drinking water. Seems that one of the additives,MTB, that helps keep our air clean is not good to drink. Go figure. This could be Scott Peterson's defense, he drank too much water. I digress, good night.

Edited by - on

Jonl9
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 02:29:29

My current Yamaha outboard is an HPDI, High Pressure Direct Injection. The fuel is injected directly into the cylinder and it is quite quiet and starts from a cold start on even freezing days like it's fully warmed up. No big blue cloud, etc. The economy comes very close to that of a four stroke, as well. All the big manufacturers of large outboards now have this technology.

When they apply direct injection to four strokes, they too will have another jump in economy!

However, I cringe when I think of something going wrong with this high technology. The computer failed in my engine and the boat was out of commission for 5 weeks while the dealor and Yahama technical support were trying to figure out what went wrong. Thankfully that $1600 computer was still on warrantee. I have to comment, also, the engine did get me home, ran in some default mode, but still ran!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 09:20:41

I have always wondered why the little electric trolling motor technology has not developed to the point of being a viable auxiliary for sailboats. I care not for all of the pollution issues associated with outboards, they are ridiculous. I would however love a motor, with the simple reliability inherent in one, to replace the engine with its inherent complexities.

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 10:08:47

Excuse the diversion, and if it was this forum that I originally found this site, but I'm posting it for all the MotorHeads out there.. It's kind of neat..

[url="http://www.keveney.com/Engines.html"]http://www.keveney.com/Engines.html[/url]

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 11:27:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jm
 Excuse the diversion, and if it was this forum that I originally found this site, but I'm posting it for all the MotorHeads out there.. It's kind of neat..

[url="http://www.keveney.com/Engines.html"]http://www.keveney.com/Engines.html[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

sweet

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 21:06:32

Very cool! I've always loved that ****el!

(The word police don't like the word w-a-n-k.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/30/2004 21:14:08

basecamp97
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2004 : 19:44:59

Dear Dave Bristle:

I wish to replace my older two stroke engine with a four stroke. I have been trying to figure out whether to buy a Honda or a Yamaha. I do a lot of extended salt water cruises away from civilization (and repair shops).

My question to you: In an earlier post why did you say that Yamaha was the leader in the four stroke engine department? Perhaps your insights will help me make a decision. I do a lot of sailing in Maine and it seems that the most common engine that you see on the water are Hondas. However on this site people seem to lean towards the Yamahas.

I was also concerned that Yamaha's more limited warranty might be an indication of their reliability. What do you think?

Thanks so much for your opinion on this matter.

Philip

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2004 : 22:46:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by basecamp97
 Dear Dave Bristle:

...In an earlier post why did you say that Yamaha was the leader in the four stroke engine department? Perhaps your insights will help me make a decision. I do a lot of sailing in Maine and it seems that the most common engine that you see on the water are Hondas. However on this site people seem to lean towards the Yamahas.

I was also concerned that Yamaha's more limited warranty might be an <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Philip...

I credited Yamaha as the leader because they have by far more dealerships, particularly though boat dealers, and appear (to me) to sell more 4-strokes. They've been selling 4-strokes for something over 10, maybe 15 years, so they aren't newbies (like Mercury/Nissan/Tohatsu and Outboard Marine/Bombardier). Both Honda and Yamaha know what they're doing, and their products have been out there being abused for many years.

I picked Honda because, at the time, the comparable Yamaha didn't have a pull starter. Of less importance, the Honda has twice the alternator output and 2.5" longer shaft. It also helps that there's a dealer close to home--a guy I respect. (I also have done business with and respect the Yamaha dealer a few towns away.) Both engines are very good, in my opinion, and are used by many commercial operators (including police patrols). My Honda 8 has been VERY nice so far--starts instantly, runs quietly, has tremendous thrust,...

Parts, service, and a respectable dealer are high on my list--no matter what engine you buy, you'll wish you had them. I don't recall the warranty differences, but warranties are funny things--some of the worst cars have the longest warranties, which are built into the purchase prices. I buy Toyotas, and have never, ever had warranty service on a single one. (Oops! Find wood, and then knock on it...)

PS: I told the Yamaha dealer why he lost the business, and he told Yamaha. You guys who wanted a pull starter on the Yamaha can thank me.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/10/2004 23:03:46

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2004 : 23:07:09

Philip,

A few years ago... it seemed that no matter what motor someone had... they were happy with it. It was a win win deal.

Your observation that Hondas are currently taking a bashing agrees with my perception also of the mood of the forum.

I currently own two Honda 8 hp motors. A 93 Classic 8 and a 2001 8 hight thrust. I haven't had any problems from either. But... there have been those who have had some problems and reports of problems do help provide a perspective about what is working and what isn't.

I bought my 2001 Honda in December of 2000 after looking at all the options. At that time, the Yamaha 8 hp offering didn't include a pull start and the power tilt was maditory instead of an option... not a very good design for sailboats. The clincher for me... was two reports of Yamahas mysteriously locking up. One on this forum and one on the Trailer Sailor forum. Reports like that tend to have an influence upon buying choices.

I agree with a few others who have commented that part of the problems are likely due to the new emissions standards. We've been used to abusing outboards and they forgiving us, but the fuel passages on new four stroke carburetors are so small that get out of jail card is no longer applicable.

These motors require clean fuel. A little water or small spec of dirt or rust in the fuel will block a passage. They demand that we run them dry rather than leaving gas within to leave a varnish deposit. And, the idle circuits are so restricted as to be impossible to start if the throttle is not parked in the right place. Some of the motors have also gone towards auto choke... making things even a little more complicated.

So...its likely that part of the problem is that we haven't adapted to them yet, we're expecting them to be as forgiving as their predecessors and they are unwilling.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2004 : 21:58:33

Hmmm... If you buy Arlyn's argument, and it's hard to dismiss, the answer would appear to be a 2-stroke--about the smallest you can get with an extra-long (25+") shaft, probably meaning 9.9 hp. Yamaha is by far the leader, meaning more parts and service in more places, and their 2-stroke is probably the most bullet-proof outboard on the market.

That said, I still like my Honda 8 Power Thrust. But I don't get out of Long Island Sound, where help is generally at hand and a light breeze will get me home one way or another.

Oh, and Buzz... If I go over to the dark side, I'll look into that technology.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/11/2004 22:01:58

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2004 : 23:40:48

Whoa Dave, I wouldn't trade a quiet running 4 stroke for a re-fight of the Alamo... I'm willing to run it out of fuel after every use and keep the fuel clean. I've run the motor at times for 9 hr passages and don't want the noise of a 2 stroke.

This summer I had the opportunity for a ride on a Mac 25 sporting a 2 stroke and it was at least double (if not much more)the noise of the 4 stroke.

The noise of a 2 stroke would be no problem for a kicker to get in and out of the marina... but no good for enjoyable cruising.

Edited by - on

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