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Where does coastal end and bluewater begin?

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TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/20/2004 : 14:32:50

Hi, Over the past two years, I've been sailing my 89WK with 8 hp Honda in the bays and ICW between Mobile and Pensacola. I've often thought I would like to go out about 3 miles or so into the Gulf (on a nice day) and cruise along the coastline.

I'm wondering if our boats have enough power to safely negotiate the sometimes swiftly flowing passes. Though, I can certainly time my exit and entry during slack tide. Also, I'd like to know if going out 3 miles or so is pushing the definition of coastal cruising, and the capability of our boats. I'd appreciate your advice.

Thanks!

Tom

Tom Albright

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 14:52:03

Tom,

Well, firstly, I sail the Great Lakes (Erie) which at times can be very bluewater-like (remember the Edmund Fitzgerald) in both it's vastness and potentially hazardous conditions so I guess it all depends on the definitions of coastal and bluewater. I been in some serious stuff only a half mile offshore on Lake Erie and I have also been on a sheet of glass in the middle of the Atlantic. I guess it's just the potential situations that you have to be aware of.

I don't have any local knowledge for your area, but if conditions were suitable, I wouldn't hesitate going offshore and losing sight of land as long as you are sailing within both your and the boat's abilities.

There is a certain exhilaration one gets when one surpasses a perceived barrier whether it be sailing singlehanded, sailing at night, far from shore, racing, during iffy weather, or even when taking up sailing in the first place, because once you conquer each barrier, whole new worlds open up.

Oh, and one more thing.....

Edited by - dlucier on 02/20/2004 14:52:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 15:46:34

You are bluewater cruising when you are offshore at such a distance that you can't get the boat into a sheltered area before bad weather hits. If you can't get to shelter before the weather gets bad, then you have to be able to cope with the worst conditions that the wind and seas can throw at you.

Years ago, I cruised 2-3 miles offshore along the Gulf coast between Tampa Bay and Ft. Myers in a Catalina 22. Check the weather carefully before you go out, and head for the nearest navigable pass at the first sign of bad weather, and you'll be fine. It's beautiful sailing out there. But, do yourself a favor. Don't go offshore until you are out of sight of land. Just go offshore a mile, and then look out to sea. If you are out of sight of land, it will look the same, only it will look that way in every direction.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 16:50:00

Steve, where does bluewater and ocean passagemaking begin? Just kidding.

We don't need to go there, again.

And same as previously, I can't stand it when Don posts "Fear" so here, once again, is the antithesis:

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 18:20:32

Tom... I've sailed the section of Gulf between Pensacola and Perdido Cut twice on my C250...once in dense fog. The second time an ebb tide was flowing out the channel at Perdido Cut and at first glance looked intimidating with a lot of water swirling around the bridge. However, it proved to be no problem for an 8 hp.

I loved the Gulf...it was considerably different in its movement than the Great Lakes with a much longer wave period.

Sailing out of sight of land is not such a big issue... the weather window is the big issue.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/20/2004 18:25:43

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2004 : 21:10:21

Possibly... Bluewater: An area in which you must be able to ride out heavy weather for a sustained period of time before reaching shelter.

With a 'coastal cruiser' I wouldn't go further offshore than my confidence in the weather forecast dictated. If you're pretty confident in the weather "4 hours out"... that's how far you should go. Naturally this means your safe distance will vary with the time of year, region, local features... etc.

I think a C25 in good condition is capable of holding it's own in some fairly nasty conditions... up to the point where you start talking about breaking water. That's the bad stuff.

This means that in some situations you may be better off staying offshore rather than trying to run in through shoal water, contrary currents and breaking seas.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 00:38:52

No one has mentioned the different keel configurations. I have sailed up and down the Washington and Oregon coasts several times....mostly on my old Tartan 30, which IMHO could have taken A LOT of punishment had I found it.

However, I am now back to the swinger. I love it for how I use the boat, and I have been in 35+ winds and nasty...partially breaking seas running against tide (I survived just fine).

BUT, there's NO WAY I am going out of the sight of land with this boat, nor anywhere that I cannot find protection in a couple or three hours. While it has NOT happened to me, the thought of a swing keel starting to bang around down there when falling off big waves just scares the sh^t out of me! NO THANK YOU. I love the ocean...and I like these boats, but the two should not go together for any real length of time, IMHO. These boats are for relatively "protected water"(meaning no LONNGGG Fetch of wind or, more importantly, seas), or within relatively rapid reach of protected water. In my mind, that is what is meant by "coastal"...

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 10:35:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 And same as previously, I can't stand it when Don posts "Fear"...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You don't like my poster?

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 10:43:25

Certain parts of the Catalina 25 are not designed for "big water", for example, the cabin windows, the swing keel (if your boat is a swinger) and the pop-top. Even "protected waters", like San Francisco Bay or Suisun Bay can get pretty nasty in a 30 mph wind, which is typical of summer afternoons. The short-period, 3' choppy waves that result really toss you around on a small boat. I have been out on San Francisco Bay in a Catalina 22 on days like that, and the "keel klunk" was so bad it sounded like the boat was aground and banging on rocks! Other questionable features for blue-water are the outboard motor, small cockpit drains, large companionway, and deck-mounted lower-shroud chainplates on these boats. The larger, newer Catalinas use big stainless steel rods under the chainplates to transfer all the rigging forces down to the keel, plus much thicker Lexan in the windows. These are "blue-water" boats. I have been 12 miles offshore of Monterey once, in my Catalina 22, whale-watching several years ago, but that was at a time of year when it is very unlikely that bad weather will suddenly build up without warning. The Central Coast of California is not subject to sudden afternoon thunderstorms, like most of the country east of the Rockies, so offshore cruising (within 12 miles) is pretty safe. The biggest hazard in summer is strong northwesterly winds that can pile up huge swells in an hour or two, and turn the whole coast into a lee shore.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 10:49:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 You don't like my poster?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oops, forgot to insert a winky in there, didn't I?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 And same as previously, I can't stand it when Don posts "Fear"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
"For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze."

- Richard Bode, First you have to row a little boat

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 10:57:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 "For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze."

- Richard Bode, First you have to row a little boat

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I like that!

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 12:10:43

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I hear you saying that the defining factor in "coastal vs blue water" is whether we can find protection, rather then merely the distance from shore. For example, if we're sailing one-half mile from the coastline, yet the next inlet is four hours away, we may be more exposed than if sailing three miles off the coastline, with an inlet only 1 hour away.

I understand your thoughts about going out of sight of land in the C25. I've only sailed in protected waters, (protected from the Gulf by barrier islands). From the dive boats that I've been on, I think we still have land in sight at 3 miles out, right? It seems the condos disappear from view around 12 miles out.

I also appreciate your comments about the 8hp being sufficient to handle the pass at Perdido. If things get rough, we can crank it up and turn on "gimme shelter"!

Tom

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 14:41:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TomA
 ...I think I hear you saying that the defining factor in "coastal vs blue water" is whether we can find protection, rather then merely the distance from shore. For example, if we're sailing one-half mile from the coastline, yet the next inlet is four hours away, we may be more exposed than if sailing three miles off the coastline, with an inlet only 1 hour away...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That says it pretty good, Tom.

Relatively speaking, 3 miles offshore isn't that far. A boat traveling at 6 knots can cover 3 nautical miles in 30 minutes.

You have probably read about Leon's trip to the Bahamas and numerous others who have traveled to Catalina Island. I'm sure each of these trips were more than 3 miles offshore. One of the featured articles in this month's Mainsheet has an article about a guy who sailed his Catalina 16.5 to Catalina Island. I don't know how far from the mainland Catalina Island is, but he says it took him about 4 hours at 7 knots which would mean they traveled around 28 nautical miles(around 32 statute miles).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TomA
 From the dive boats that I've been on, I think we still have land in sight at 3 miles out, right? It seems the condos disappear from view around 12 miles out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As far as distance to the horizon goes, when standing in the cockpit the horizon is about 3 to 3 1/2 miles away. On the cabintop, it might be 4 miles. A 50 foot tree should still be visible at 8 miles and a 100ft tower should be visible to almost 12 miles.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/21/2004 14:44:58

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 16:15:36

I had always heard the horizon was 14 miles for a typical hieght person at sea level.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 17:00:49

[url="http://pollux.nss.nima.mil/pubs/pubs_j_apn_sections.html?rid=187"]Bowditch[/url]Table 12 is distance to horizon for a given height of eye.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2004 : 18:05:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I had always heard the horizon was 14 miles for a typical height person at sea level.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm"]Distance to Horizon[/url]

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2004 : 06:18:37

With GPS, lifejacket and harness, VHF (fixed), VHF (handheld), compass, charts, flares, 5 gallons of gas (or more), reliable OB, good sails and rigging, cell phone, lines led aft, roller furling, ability to quickly reef the main, Vessel Assist membership, anchors/chain, and experience, don't be afraid to lose sight of land. Fin or wing is a big plus (I have a fin).

I routinely day sail 5 to 10 miles or more offshore. I've run 56 miles from Dana Point harbor to the Isthmus on Catalina Island twice. I've sailed 100 miles from Dana Point to Mission Bay, run 17 miles from Mission Bay to the Coronado Islands also cruised 14 miles from Dana Point to Newport. All of these were out of sight of land at times. Sometimes for many hours. Usually motorsailing when far, far out in light early morning winds.

The boat is pretty tough but will be quite uncomfortable in rough conditions. Watch your weather, know how to reef, make sure the boat is mechanically ready, stow EVERYTHING inside, and go for it. Do it a little at a time to get experience. If the winds are too strong or too light, go, but stay close. That's how you get experience. Dive into those passes and see how it goes! It's a sport.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2004 : 14:05:24

Some good responses here.

The only thing I'd add is that, while visiting inlaws who "winter" in one of those condos on the beach in Gulf Shores, AL in February and March, I've spotted two C27's (not that much bigger than a C25) cruising seemingly comfortably along that part of the Gulf.

Other than that, here's a couple other thoughts you can take or leave -- I'd seek the advice of locals you trust who have done it. Also, go only in good weather which is predicted to continue. Further, take small steps (i.e. the first time exit Mobile Bay just a little and return, increasing the distance out into the Gulf a little each subsequent time as you increase the confidence in your abilities and those of your boat).

Edited by - on

TomA
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2004 : 19:20:23

Thanks, everyone, for your advice. Over the past couple of years, I have made friends with a few sailors at the marina. I may ask someone with more miles under his keel to go out with me for the first time or two.

Edited by - TomA on 02/22/2004 19:24:35

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:58:34

Tom,

The posts about seas, roughness and currents talk about having enough engine power. There are other aspects to consider about our little cruisers and their engines.

In SF Bay you have read about the summer season and the daily build up of wind to over 25kts typically in the pm.

Under sail, beating into short waves the engine in the up position takes a pounding. The pendulum effect of the weight puts enormous strain on the mount, and the transom. Up and down it hammers. I often tie a relief strap in the full up position when this happens to take some of the strain. Ultimately, the pivot points of the mount wear, causing even more travel.

With the engine running, even in the lowest position wave action can hammer the mount and flood over the cowling. A following cross sea often splashes the cowl. Sometimes I have put my canvas cover over the engine to prevent water from entering. Enough air gets in.

Yes, these conditions could happen anytime it is rough, so prudence is key.

An example of imprudence was the IDIOT! that was out in a 22 last week just off Ocean Beach, less than half mile out, just south of the Cliff House and the Golden Gate. Very rough seas in between storms. Swamped, sank, two saved, one went down still teathered to the boat. Absolutely no need for that to have happened.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Sailing IN the SF Bay

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 15:41:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jwilliams
 ...An example of imprudence was the IDIOT! that was out in a 22 last week just off Ocean Beach, less than half mile out, just south of the Cliff House and the Golden Gate. Very rough seas in between storms. Swamped, sank, two saved, one went down still tethered to the boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what scares me about tethers!

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:12:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 That's what scares me about tethers!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And, how about the prospect of being trapped in the cabin or under the cockpit held UP under the boat by your auto-inflate PFD?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:38:04

Almost any safety device can kill or injure you in an unusual situation, but the overwhelming majority of the time they save you. For example, auto seat belts can cut your throat or break your ribs; Auto air bags can give you a brain concussion; The safety harness and tether keep you from getting separated from the boat. There is a greater chance that you will fall off the boat than that it will sink and take you with it. It's better to use the devices. Seat belts definitely saved my son in an auto accident three months ago, although there was a remote possibilitry that they might have injured him.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:45:46

Every sailor should have a quality sharp folding knife (that locks open when needed) in a sheath on the belt or in a pocket at all times. I do.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:18:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 That's what scares me about tethers!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And, how about the prospect of being trapped in the cabin or under the cockpit held UP under the boat by your auto-inflate PFD?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks!...Now I have another worry.

Edited by - on

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