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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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new rudders

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idaspyder
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/01/2004 : 22:09:01

Hello All,
we're interested in expanding our product line to include rudders for the C25 and C250.
We build performance spade, kick-up and fixed blade rudders for most boats to 35'. Our rudders offer balanced NACA foil shapes that reduce drag and increase lift resulting in better pointing and increased speed off the wind. We cover every blade with our lifetime warranty.
We are under the impression that the C25 and C250 rudders could use some improvement, I'd like to see if there are a few owners who need a rudder and would be willing to do some testing with our blades and report to us and the group with feedback.
please contact me off list if you have interest, I don't always get a chance to check this discussion board for replies. sailboats@idasailor.com
Thank you and fairwinds,
-Joel
Joel Santarone
General Manager
IdaSailor Marine
Idasailor.com
866-400-2204 toll free
208-375-2204 Fab Shop

Joel Santarone
General Manager
IdaSailor Marine
866-400-2204 toll free

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 23:47:12

These sound interesting!!!

With a recent swing to wing conversion I am interested in the idea of a kickup rudder as well as improving pointing ability. Any thoughts on rudder design and pointing ability?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 08:41:23

Performance to weather includes a lot of variables, only one of which is the rudder design. Performance seeks little gains wherever they can be found and cumulatively... small gains add up.

Rudders have two opposing forces, lift and drag. These are referred to in ratio to each other. Rudder designs differ in their lift to drag ratios with a high aspect ratio (long and narrower) having a better ratio than a shorter wider chord. Longer may incurr risk of grounding if the rudder is deeper than the keel unless made in a beaching (kickup) design.

High aspect ratio rudders also incurr more structural concerns because of less chord, less thickness, a longer arm, and the fact that they stay immersed better when weather helm loads can become more demanding.

Because of this, high aspect ratio rudders are more often seen on lighter displacements, those more tender which will heel over and yield to the wind rather than transfer huge loads to the rudder.

C25 racing is meant to be one design which means that the little things that can increase performance are usually outlawed (true for rudders), and wisely so as there is no end to the money and effort that can go into refining the little things that do add up and ultimately lead to a disparity between boats.

Would a high aspect ratio work on a C25? Probably not a few years ago... but with the advent of new high strength composites they likely would now. If racing rules don't prohibit a change, a high aspect ratio rudder would provide more lift with less drag and that would equate to better performance.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 11:00:35

I would like to ask a newbie question about our boats. I have always understood that the 22 was a onedesign racer. I could believe that the 27 may have been intended as a ondesign capable design. I have never been under the impression that the 25 was designed as a onedesign. Is this a fiction that "we" as an association have contrived? Looking at the weight varioations in the 22 it seems Catalina has done a very poor job of supporting the onedesign ideal, they appearently think that as well since they are reintroducing the 22 to more strict construction guidelines. The variations in the 25s have to make the differences in the 22s look small. I see a better rudder as a better sailing control device and there are no controls over furlers, solid vangs, full batten sails, etc. I also think that if a company wanted to invest the time and money to make my boat sail better then that effort should be encouraged. If I needed a rudder and there was a demonstrably better rudder available for under $500 then I would feel pretty lucky.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 11:34:23

From the C25/250 National Association Constitution and Bylaws...

B. RUDDER

1. Rudders shall be of fiberglass-foam-wood composition and from an approved mold. (Rudders manufactured for C-25s by Catalina Yachts prior to the publication of these rules are considered to be approved. In the case where the rudders are obviously different from those now being manufactured, proof of origin may be required.

2. Changes to the rudder to affect weight distribution will not be allowed.

3. Beaching rudders will be allowed provided they comply with B-1.

Edited by - on

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 12:18:18

A "class boat" that has three keel configurations and two mast heigths was NEVER intended as a one design racer by it's manufacturer. The ownners of the boats have promoted that concept. "One design" in my mind means all boats absolutely the same, no variation allowed, we simply are not that. But that does not mean we can't race a have fun !!!

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 Equinox sr/sk

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 12:33:50

Frank, I agree with you... in the case of the 250, there are currently four different rudders and the rudder issue is still not satisfactory.

I think its time to open up the rudders to private vendors who might wish to compete and get it right if they can.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 12:50:21

Frank, your comments about C22 racing are interesting... I have a friend (ex Commodore of our Hobie Fleet) that raced c22s. One day he was describing the c22 that will garner a racers interest.

Certain hull number runs that are considered lighter in their production.

They will jerk out the sliding galley if it was equiped

They want one with no life lines

I'm sure the list goes on.

In short, they want the lightest hull they can find.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 12:58:55

This is the private email I sent to Joel

Hi, I am the Catalina 25/250 National Association Tell Tale (quarterly newsletter) editor. My wife is the C25/250 National Association website editor (web master). We have a 1978 fin keel standard rig with all the racing updates. You can see us at http://www.indiscipline.org I sail 5 times per week or more! I am also an officer in the Catalina 25/250 San Diego Mission Bay Fleet 7. I have the sea time and am working on obtaining my USCG Captain's License.

I have the aftermarket "balanced rudder" from Catalina Direct. My boat has the upgraded pintles and gudgeons.

If you care to send me one of your new rudders, I'll be happy to test it. I will compare it against the CD balanced rudder, and measure pointing ability, speed, control while backing, heaving-to, and anything else I can think of. I will then write and article for the Tell Tale about the experience. I'll be happy to return the rudder after the test.

James W. Baumgart

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 21:20:52

It seems to me that the C-250 has some issues these guys could help with--namely, the lack of a kick-up rudder for WB models, and a blade that extends below the depth of the keel for WK models (?). The C-25 has a new balanced rudder from CD and Catalina, but some question its construction, and I certainly paid more than I thought it was worth (although the price has apparently come down). The net of it is that we could all benefit from some competition in this area... As several have said, we don't really have one-design boats--just relatively similar, conservatively designed boats. If we wanted to spend big bucks making them fast, we'd buy boats that can really be made to go fast. If we want to sail true one-design, we should buy popular one-design boats (such as the J-24). Let's not quibble too much about things that can make our boats work better, and be safer, for cruisers and daysailors as well as racers. For the few boats at Nationals, our class rules should be at least as lenient on rudders as on sails.

Edited by - on

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