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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/07/2004 : 18:30:48

I am prepping to compete in my first race. The race will be under US Sailing? rules. The questions I have

1. Is there a quick reference guide for rules?
2. My furler can accept 2 headsails. Would this be legal or helpful under downwind conditions. I am borrowing one pole for the race.

Although racing may be in my future, the budget does not support a spinnaker at the moment. I am getting a new main/genoa!

Thanks. Tom.

PO of 1988 Wing HN 5775
"Cote d'Azure"
Fleet 25

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2004 : 23:11:32

Tom,

Check out the following link: http://www.ussailing.org/rules/

Where are you located? We are so trying to round up all potential racers for the Nationals in Portland, OR in July. Feel free to check out our website (urls on the sticky thread at the top of this page). On there I list my 10 oversimplified "Ten Commandments of Racing Rules" there.....Feel free to use them if they will help. The entire rules page can seem daunting at first, but knowing the basics is a MUST. Good luck. Usually a headfoil for sail changes is legal....and often necessary to be competitive.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 Sk/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2004 : 23:18:49

Tom - you can use the double foil headsail to make quick headsail changes, but I do not believe that you can fly 2 headsails at once (our racing rules on Canyon Lake specifically prohibit it).
Derek

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 06:21:53

Thanks for the help. I am afraid I am a little too far for the nationals. 3500 miles to be exact. I have sailed the columbia on a sailboard. If I came out that way you would have a tough time getting me out of the Hood river area. Someting about a strong current running against the wind. I am going to be racing the Mug Race in Jacksonville. My goal is to at least be able to see Jerry (pretty penny) when he finishes!

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 10:18:49

Tom, two head sails at the same time would be interesting to see in the MUG. You might give the Rudder Club a call and get there ruling on the possibility. I saw a picture somewhere of one with two sails poled out on a run, but cannot remember were. I am sure Penny II will be in your sights if we get enough wind to finish, but if Penny was sailing I would not guarantee it. Did some testing yesterday with my son in the afternoon with the winds SW @ 20-g25. First with full main and jib (135 roller) to continue what Oscar and I started on rudder controll of the wing with big rudder. At that time heeling angle was all a guess since no clinometer installed and now with the navpod installed we have one. At 25 degrees, which is recommended max. angle, it was not a problem. As we approached 30 it became very touch-and-go, at 30 there was no holding her and up she came. Penny, however did not run well until she was at 25 and she would not come up unless I helped her. There has been many a race with Penny that 35 - 40 was the norm. PennyII will never reach that point. One thing was very noticable, when we took in the first reef, control, of course was much easier, but speed loss was not readable on my GPS. If you reefed Penny then speed would drop a little over a knot and sometimes close to two.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 17:50:26

Try this link submitted by Steve...

http://www.isafrules.com/casebookstartpage.swf

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 21:44:31

Honestly, I think it would be a rare situation where the main would not blanket the leeward headsail. Several months ago there was a thread about wing on wing, it demonstrated what we often find; people have different priorities even when doing the same things.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5212

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 23:07:23

Jerry, I was out as well yesterday. It was a bit of a wild ride at times. I ordered a new main today. I finally had enough of the old baggy main. From what you are saying, I want to push the boat pretty hard with the main and reef only as a last resort? Under a reefed main, I was very close to putting a rail under. Rudder control never seems to run out. I just don't normally push things that far. I will have to take you out with the new canvas to help me tune the boat.
As for the double headsail, I was just curious about using 2 headsails instead of the main-jib combo.
Thanks, Tom.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 00:01:18

Tom, you must remember that on the C25 the headsail is your power sail. So in our conditions yesterday crank in the roller on your boat leave the main as it is until you rolled your headsail down to a strom jib. At that point if control is still a problem then reef. As I said, you will not run out of rudder even with the gunnels in the water. Which my son, daughter-in-law and I did for almost a complete Mug one year. That year we dropped the 150 and ran up the 110. Never did reef the main and were making over 6knts. It was constant work in those conditions with all taking turns on the tiller.
If your new main is a full battened then I am not sure which sail would be your power sail.
I wish I could remenber where I saw the picture of W on W headsail, it really looked great.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 22:43:53

Jerry,

Interesting that you find rolling up the jib and leaving the main unreefed has given you your best performance? I have found the opposite works best for me (however I do not have a roller furling jib either). To minimize leeway, you have to control heel, flattening the main, and then reefing as required controls that really well. You want to be able to keep the boom close hauled going up wind as much as possible so you can point, but you need to get rid of area so you do not heel.

The "longer" LP jibs usually trim to a narrower trim angle (unless its a really high clewed jib), which also helps pointing. For roller furling, I have never seen a jib that is rolled perform well going up wind, seems they always lose effeciency as the rolling up messes up their shape (but like I said, I do not use them, but I have sailed on alot of boats with them). I cling to as large of a jib as possible for as long as possible for pointing.

Sounds like you all were working hard on the helm. Was it waves or weather helm? If close hauled and you had a lot of weather helm, you need to tighten the backstay (to straighten the forestay), and tighten the halyards to move draft forward, in addition to minimizing heel. Reaching or in waves, you just end up working hard it seems, but balancing the helm and sailing her flat is the key to speed on a 25.....(IMHO).

Fun stuff to race (even informally just with one other boat) and try different approaches to see what works best for you!

Have fun!

Chuck

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 Tom, you must remember that on the C25 the headsail is your power sail. So in our conditions yesterday crank in the roller on your boat leave the main as it is until you rolled your headsail down to a strom jib. At that point if control is still a problem then reef. As I said, you will not run out of rudder even with the gunnels in the water. Which my son, daughter-in-law and I did for almost a complete Mug one year. That year we dropped the 150 and ran up the 110. Never did reef the main and were making over 6knts. It was constant work in those conditions with all taking turns on the tiller.
If your new main is a full battened then I am not sure which sail would be your power sail.
I wish I could remenber where I saw the picture of W on W headsail, it really looked great.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 23:27:09

Chuck,
Jerry sails a 250.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2004 : 11:23:51

When a C-25 is heeling excessively, you have a dilemma between reducing the size of the headsail, or reefing the mainsail. As a general principle, the headsail generates the most forward drive, and the mainsail helps the boat point to windward, so you need to achieve the correct balance between them in order to sail efficiently to windward. The particular disadvantage of the mainsail, however, is that it is more responsible for excessive heeling and for excessive tiller pressure than is the headsail. When a boat heels excessively, and when it has excessive tiller pressure, it is generating drag, which drastically slows the boat.

On a C-25, which has a masthead rig, the jib is the principle driving sail. It generates the most forward drive and the least heeling moment. Therefore, when racing, I want to fly the maximum amount of jib that the boat can carry.

The mainsail generates much less forward drive and much more heeling moment, so, when you are overpowered, you want to use proportionately less mainsail area. However, the leech of the mainsail helps drive the boat to windward, so you always want to keep some amount of mainsail area flying and properly shaped.

When my boat is overpowered, and I am trying to decide whether to reef the mainsail or to reduce the size of the headsail, I completely ease the mainsheet while the wind is gusting. If the boat does not continue to heel excessively when sailing under jib alone, then I conclude that the size of the jib is not excessive. If the boat is nearly overpowered when I ease the mainsheet, then I reef the mainsail. If the boat has a little more latitude before it becomes overpowered, then I don’t reef the mainsail, but I depower it by flattening it, moving it’s draft forward and increasing backstay tension. Let me explain the logic that I use to reach these conclusions.

Because it is limited by its design, a sailboat can only stand up to a certain maximum amount of drive from the combined area of the mainsail and jib. If the boat is heeling excessively when sailing on the jib alone, then the boat won’t be able to stand up to the addition of more sail area and more power from the mainsail. In that case, if you reduce the size and power of the jib, it will enable you to add the power of the mainsail without overpowering the boat. Whenever I reduce the size of the headsail, I also usually tuck in at least a flattening reef in the mainsail. (My mainsail has a racing shelf foot with a flattening reef.) If that does not sufficiently relieve the tiller pressure or excessive heeling, then I tuck in the first full reef.

If the boat is not heeling excessively when sailing on the jib alone, then that tells you that you can restore some of the power of the mainsail without overpowering the boat, but, if the boat heels excessively when you do so, you should at least flatten the mainsail, and perhaps tuck in a reef. When you reduce your mainsail area, it will help the boat point to windward, it will reduce the tiller pressure, and the mainsail will not generate so much heeling moment.

Excessive heeling and excessive tiller pressure are the two observable conditions that impede the boat’s speed and windward ability. Your objective is to find the combination of mainsail and headsail that minimize those adverse conditions, while maximizing the boat’s speed and windward ability. When you observe that those adverse conditions are abating (i.e., you see that the boat is not heeling as much, and you feel less pressure on the tiller), then you will know that you have improved the balance of your sailplan.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2004 : 11:35:54

Frank, now I sail a 250, but for the previous 12 years I sailed a 25. Of course unlike Chucks fin mine was a wing and we found she did better with the largest jib available. The other thing about the wing was it does not point as well as the fin. In most cases in a tacking duel the wing loses almost every time. The fins I sailed against were able to point up almost 10 degrees better than the wing. We also found that the wing sailed its best around 25 degrees of heel, but could be sailed as well at 35. Made for a little more work, but the performance was there and it is a blast. If your crusing this is the oppisite of what you want. In those cases, with the General on board, we reefed the main and hanked on the 110. It flattened the boat and slow down, but when crusing who needs speed.
If your in that much of a hurry then by a airplane ticket not a sailboat. I had a find gentleman tell me one day, when I was much younger, that people that sail just want to go from one place to another, while people that by smug pots want to get form one place to another. Thats why I own both to give me the option plus I like to ski.
Tom, Steve hit the nail on the head for maxiumizing speed. What I was telling you is how to just get control by reducing power the quickest. Just remember balance for max. speed is the key. That is what I am trying to learn how to do with the new boat.

Edited by - frog0911 on 03/10/2004 11:47:18

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