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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Broke my whisker pole-what should I get now?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:06:18

Hi there,
Last week when sailing in 15 to 20 knot winds in the Keys, and attempting to go wing on wing with my 135 headsail, and the whisker pole from my old Catalina 22 I experienced a slight failure. Can you say pretzel?
So what kind of whisker pole should I get? What size? I have a 135 furling headsail, probably would like to get a 150 and a 90 someday. Adjustable would be nice.
Also, do I need an adjustable tracked padeye to attach it to the mast? If not, how do you determine the best height above the cabin?
What I lack in experience, I more than make up for in enthusiasm. Recipe for disaster, don't you think? YEEHAH
Thanks

Frank Gloss
Formerly 89WK/TR
85 Ericson 32-3 shoal draft "Molto Bene"

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:09:51

http://www.forespar.com/catalog/whiskerpoles/whiskerpoles.htm

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:32:50

Frank,

I have a copy of a blueprint for a Cat 25 mast that Catalina sent me several years ago. It shows the optional whisker pole ring mounted 5' 0" from the base of the mast.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:53:20

I put two eyes on the mast, cheaper than a track, one for the 110 jib at gooseneck height, one at the first reef point for the drifter. I try to keep the pole horizontal, and just marked the spot while sailing, then did the drilling later.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:59:15

Frank, I have a Forespar ADJ7-17 that I have used since 1990. I used it with a 150 on my C25 and will now use it on my C250 with the roller 135. As for the padeye 5 feet sounds like a spinnaker placement not a whisker pole. I don't remember how high it was set on the C25 for a 150, but here are the directions I was given by an old salt. Attach it to the headsail, expand it out the distance equal to the foot length, pull the sail back until the pole is 90 degrees to the mast, pick it up push it out as far as you can and then level it. Once level mark that spot on the mast for the padeye placement. If you plan on using it for more than one sail size then you probably will need the eye on a rail for adjustability. On my C250 for the 135 roller it came out to 3 feet. Good luck

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 20:03:26

Question.... why does it need to be level? I asked the same question about where to put mine a few years back and got the answer, it should be level. In light of the difficulty it causes getting back to the cockpit... why can't it be low enough to step over easily, lets say a foot 12-16 inches up.

What problem would result from it not being level as long as it cleared the life line and stanchion.

There may be a good reason... I'm just curious to what it is cus if there isn't one, I'm thinking of changing my two foot track to a one a foot or so longer where it can be dropped making it much easier to get over when running wing n wing.

Or does everyone set the pole for wing and wing from aft of the pole? On the c250, there really isn't room to do that and have the feet spread well for stability. Its much easier to handle the pole from the foredeck.

Any thoughts?

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 20:24:51

My carpenters brain says a level pole is more under compression than a bending moment, thus less of a chance to get the banana effect. I set mine from behind. In fact, as a puny whippersnapper I learned to set whisker poles I could barely lift by hooking the clew of a depowered sail just hanging dead in front of the mast, on to the pole, which will carry that end of the pole while then sticking it straight forward, on the right (as in: correct) side of the head stay and hooking the other end of the pole on to the mast. Then you walk back and bring in the sheet. A race captain would probably have an episode over the down time of the sail, but cruising it beats trying to muscle the thing out there while the sail is filled......

As a side note, a good helm person wil help you by keeping a wind shade right where you need it, ie. ever so slightly by the lee, with the main blanketing the area in front of the mast.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 03/08/2004 20:32:25

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 20:29:48

From an engineering perspective, having the pole level or perpendicular to the mast keeps the load 'in column', reducing stress on the pole. It will also reduce the tendency of the pole (and clew of the sail) to ride up or down as the sail wants to fill or deflate.

All that said, is it really necessary? Dunno.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 20:34:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">'in column'<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you....

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 21:09:38

Not an engineer here... but I'm still not seeing it. First, I don't think whisker poles suffer the compression loads that spinnaker poles do and part of that perspective might be that I've never set one on a sail larger than a 110. But it seems to me that a whisker pole is set just tight enough to keep things from flapping around but not hard enough to make the foot of the sail twang a high C if snapped which would be counter productive to having a bit of pocket. As the jib is being loaded in a high wind, I can see that a compression load does occur... but I'm still struggling to see the angle thing.

Why is the triangulation of the load perpendicular to the mast? The tack and jib car are both well below a perpendicular point. I'm not saying it isn't perpendicular... I'm just wondering if it is.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 21:27:36

Surely, if the pole is level with the foot of the sail - i.e. horizontal, the force on the pole is pure compression. And, at least with a 155% headsail, in anything over 12 knots it is considerable. I watched a 3" diam. pole on a Hunter 31 bend like a pretzel and break in 25 knots wind 'cos the skipper didn't have it horizontal, giving it a bending force...
Derek

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 21:50:39

Well, I got one recommendation on a specific whisker pole to get. Is this the pole everyone uses, or are there other brands and models?
Thanks

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 21:52:20

mine's 3' up

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 22:09:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 As for the padeye 5 feet sounds like a spinnaker placement not a whisker pole.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Either I can't read a blue print or Frank Butler needs your sage advice. Help me out with this, Frog.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 22:59:57

Eric - I think you have misread the blueprint. If you look at the bottom left, it says "Optional Whisker Pole Eye", and the paragraph above that lists "Optional Spinnaker Gear". I am sure that the 5' measurement for a mast eye is for the spinnaker. (Mine, for a 155% genoa, is 34" above the cabin top).
Derek

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 23:05:40

Frank - if you intend to run any 150+% headsail, you need a 7' - 17' adjustable pole. The line control poles are the best for speedy and easy pole sets, but Forespar's model that is long enough to handle a 155% is too long when collapsed to dip jibe the pole. (I ordered one from WM about 15 months ago - and had to send it back.) Currently, we use a 7' - 17' Forespar telescoping twist-lock.
Derek

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 00:08:30

The Forespar web site list the reason for level as to avoid the clew "skying". I'll buy that...

Fairly interesting site with some good information.

[url="http://www.forespar.com/index.html"]Forespar[/url]

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 00:17:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Eric - I think you have misread the blueprint. If you look at the bottom left, it says "Optional Whisker Pole Eye", and the paragraph above that lists "Optional Spinnaker Gear". I am sure that the 5' measurement for a mast eye is for the spinnaker. (Mine, for a 155% genoa, is 34" above the cabin top).
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't misread anything, the print states that optional spinnaker equipment uses a track. Those options are shown with numbers inside triangles. The whisker pole eye is marked with a "1" inside a hexagon. Look at what is circled on the print. The track is shown on the third view (down)of the mast. The "cast aluminum whisker pole eye" placement is shown on the top mast view in the print. Both were options.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 00:44:26

please describe how to "dip gybe" the pole.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 07:33:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">'in column',<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

According to my understanding now... The level position is to insure that the load is not in column, but rather remains above it to insure that the pole doesn't sky. Clam was barking up the right tree

.

What I was struggling to see with both the tack and jib car below the attachment point, it seemed that the compression load angle had to be more downward, which it is.

There is another way to hold the clew from skying, using the lazy sheet around a bow cleat and then firming it up keeps the clew locked down and is a good cruising technique in that it would hold the clew position better, and allow me to drop the pole attachment to get back to the cockpit a lot easier. Definately on the "to try" list.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 07:40:37

Class rules allow whisker pole max length of 16 feet 3 1/2 inches (I believe the inches is correct) so you need a pole that is at least that long.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 08:08:47

Eric, the blueprint to me says 5 feet for the whisker pole, but that would not be the first time Catalina put the wrong symbol in the wrong place. The web site by Forespar gives a lot of good info. My pole is the line expandable and Derek is correct in that you must unhook the pole from the mast when you gybe because at 7' you cannot get it past the forestay. From what Derek says, I can only assume that the twist lock model collapses far enough for you to dip the pole down toward the forestay chainplate and to the opposite side without having to disconnect it from the mast when you gybe.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 09:26:55

Thinking of old racing days, when we jibed the chute. Both ends were jawed on the pole, and when we jibed we would drop the sheet in the jaws, removed it from the mast, slide it across the foretriangle, insert the other sheet (the end that was on the mast), and connect to the mast (the end that was on the sheet). If the pole is too long to dip, then this procedure would work well on our boats.

BTW. I think it goes without saying,

but I will anyways, that the pole shopuld be telescoping so that it works with each sail in our foresail inventory. I suspect that a longer pole is required for a 150 than for a 135, and for a 110.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 10:30:48

Sorry Eric if I offended....(need to get new glasses...).
Jerry, with a telescoping pole we don't dip-pole jibe. We keep the clew attached to the sail, unhook the pole from the mast and slide it back towards the cockpit. As soon as the clew will clear the forestay the pole is pushed forward alongside the forestay on the new set side and the butt reattached to the mast with the cry of "set". At this, the genoa trimmer hauls in the jib sheet while the foredeck person pushes the pole out sideways to speed up the set.
And as Don says, the pole needs to be adjustable to compensate for the differing foot lengths of a 155, 135 and a 110.
Arlyn, in a dip-pole jibe you shorten the pole (it's usually a line control model where, by uncleating the line from the cleat on the pole, the pole automatically collapses from the compression force) You then swing the pole across the foretriangle (still with clew attached), haul on the pole control line until fully extended and cleat it. The bow pulpit makes it impossible on a C25.
Derek

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 14:55:34

I think we all agree that the optimal height is a function of the selected sail, who knows what sail Frank had in mind when he placed that eye at 5'.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 15:52:57

At that height it would have to be a storm sail!!! And who the heck runs a whisker pole in storm force winds...

Derek

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