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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Honda charging/starting

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RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/21/2004 : 11:32:27

After a great sail yesterday, as I was about to flush the motor(2001 Honda 8hp XL shaft)....I saw that the power/charging cable was smoking. It was rubbing on the motor bracket and burned a small hole in the wire insulation. After I shut it down, and moved the cable away from the motor bracket...the starter wouldn't turn over. I pull started the motor and continued the flushing.

Now, my question is....what damage could have occurred? I didn't try the starter again, check the battery cables, or know if the alternator is charging. How can I check the starter and alternator? Or whatever else could be wrong?

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 11:48:12

Try cranking the starter motor with a set of jumper cables off of a separate battery if you have one. Just touch the jumper cables briefly to the contacts to see if the motor turns. If there is a really huge spark and the motor doesn't turn, yank the cable off as quickly as possible; you have a short in the motor itself and it will have to be rebuilt or replaced with a new one. If the motor turns over normally, makes the usual sound and doesn't smoke or get hot, the wiring harness or a connector has been damaged and you need to replace some wire. At least this will be cheaper than a new starter motor. You may also want to put an appropriately sized breaker in the starter circuit, I would guess 150 to 200 amps would be about right (ask your local Honda dealer service department guy), to protect the wiring harness, battery, and motor in the future.

Edited by - lcharlot on 03/21/2004 11:52:59

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 12:28:29

I have a 2003 honda with electric start.
I checked my service manual a while back, and I believe that the starter/charger cable needs an 80 amp fuse. I mounted one on my cable next to the positive terminal.
As a matter of fact, every cable coming off my two batteries has it's own fuse. I'm really chicken when it comes to short circuits.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 13:29:14

RoofRoof,

I hope you realize you almost set your boat on fire. You did disconnect at least one of your starter cables at the battery after this close call, right? If not, then do so immediately even if it means driving to where the boat is! Then inspect both of your starter cables from the battery to the starter motor. If they run inside a common insulator sleeve (like a shop extension cord, but of course much thicker), then replace that entire section of cable. If they are separate insulated wires, like two piece jumper cables, then check every inch of the insulation on both for blisters, melted spots, cracks, distortion, discoloration, unusual hardening, etc. If any damage is found, replace both cables with marine grade wire. Then install an appropriate sized fuse or circuit breaker in the positive battery cable as near to the battery terminal as practical, as Frank Gloss suggested. I have installed a high current key switch between my cranking battery and starter so that I can quickly break that circuit in the event of electric starter problems. An easily accessable circuit breaker would serve the same purpose.

I agree with Larry Charlot's suggestions for testing your starter motor.

It sounds to me like the problem started with the damaged insulation at the motor bracket resulting in a short circuit in the positive battery lead. However, once that short heated up the cable enough for you to see smoke, it's very possible that a similar amount of heat in the entire length of both battery cables could have damaged some or all of the insulation on them, making another, less obvious short circuit much more likely to occur in the future. If you choose to continue using any of this cable, it is even more important that you install some sort of over-current protection close to the battery to reduce the risk of fire in the future.

May your good luck continue!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 16:05:26

Is the starter and alternator two separate units or are they combined in one, such as starter/generator? I've never had an electric start outboard so have no idea. I would just replace both cables from the battery to the starter complete and hit the switch.
(If you want to spend time on diagnosis then take the cables loose form both the battery and starter. Then with your trusty OHM meter ohm out each wire. I think you will find a dead short in your POS. cable. Take a close look at your mount bracket and see if there is a burnt spot. It has been my experience with stranded wire that if you touch bare wire to metal, under load, that the strands will burn and separate. You might have a few strands still in one piece, but not enough to carry the cranking load of the motor. When you ohm the cables make sure you wiggle them around and apply tension, this will let you know for sure if you have a cable problem.)
If you hear it engage, but does not turn the motor over then it can be rebuilt for much fewer BU's than a total R&R. If the motor starts give the engine some gas, about 1/8 throttle should do it, take your ohm meter to the battery, put it in the volt mode and check the battery voltage. If the alternator is working you should read between 13.5 to 14.0 volts, normal is 13.8volts
Good luck on your quest.

Edited by - frog0911 on 03/21/2004 16:11:16

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2004 : 22:57:32

A short is a "shorter circuit" than the circuit is designed for and therefore a circuit that has too little load. The lack of resistance allows the electron flow to run wild which usually over heats the components in the "short circuit" ultimately causing one to fail (wire is a component too), and creating an "open" which is a break in the electrical path. That open stops the runaway electron flow because the the circuit is no longer complete. You cannot have a short in a wire, you must have an unintended path for electron flow and that path needs to have less resistance than the original path for an electrical problem to be called a short. Since your engine mount is electrically isolated the only way for it to be causing a problem was for the insulation to be breached on both wires and for those wires to both be touching the mount. It sounds like you absolutely need to replace the wiring (the question is how much of the wiring system needs to be replaced) and you very well may have fried your alternator. Hopefully you generated an open in one of your wires and the alternator and starter are alright, yes wire will eventually act as a fuse and "open" but that is one seriously slow-blow fuse.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/21/2004 22:58:58

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2004 : 10:15:50

ALL OK!!!

I ran all new battery cables straight from the Honda, and to the Port battery. I installed a fuse this time too.

All OK. Starter works fine, and charging fine. Thanks for all of your comments.

RoofRoof

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2004 : 15:04:48

Cool, and think of all the knowledge you acquired in the process.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay in Venice Inlet, Florida USA.

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2004 : 15:47:47

Don't you love it when a plan comes together?

Most of the time when something goes wrong, or something stops working, I automatically suspect catastrophe. It's always such a thrill when it turns out to be something simple and cheap!

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.