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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2004 : 14:26:14

Although I finally got the boat in the water April first, I was busy until yesterday messing around with the roller furler and general odds and ends, with the boat in the slip. I did do a quick out-n-back under power to see if the Parks Service dredged the channel deep enough and that appears to be good to go. So yesterday was a beautiful spring day, temps in the low 70’s and only a few clouds in the sky. Couldn’t wait for after work or the weekend, so cast of dock lines around 11:30 AM and found myself out on the lake with very light wind and at times becalmed. That’s O.K. I was out on the water in my boat…at last. I love to hear the sound of water lapping against the hull and the call of the many unusual birds we get through here on the migratory bird routes. Did lots of deck hand chores while becalmed…oiled the teak, installed grommets on the new head sail sock, installed the CD player, organized loose rope…it was all very therapeutic. I did notice a few cumulus clouds building over the mountains but they seemed innocent enough. It was getting towards 5PM, and I was feeling a little guilty for so much self-indulgence, so thought I’d crank up the O.B. and try and get home in time for dinner. First pull, the pull cord breaks. No big deal, I’ve got my tools and I’ll let the admiral know I’ll be late. While I’m down below making my call home, the wind starts to pick up in a matter of minutes and a big black thunderhead is coming my way. Things started happening fast. I secured my various projects and decided to try the emergency crank on my Honda 7.5. As the spring return assembly was already off, I just put some wraps on the emergency pulley and the thing started right up. Away we went, full throttle (6.3 mph) on a course for the marina. Looking behind at the black cloud, I could see white caps forming and coming my way. It was a race to the protection of the jetty breakwater. The wind had shifted slightly and I was getting broadsided by 20-30 knot winds, tipping the boat 10-15 degrees, bare pole. The channel the parks service dredged was narrow (about 30 feet wide) and marked with buoys. I was concerned that with that strong a wind hitting me starboard, with the keel full up, that I might get blown into the rocks of the jetty, 10-20 feet on my port. Boaty held a true course and we made it into the marina harbor, but now to get safely into the narrow slip. My neighbors on either side had their outboards tilted so their props made a formidable weapon, should I get blown into them. With white caps in the harbor I decided to play on the force of the wind, and although it must have looked strange, decided to back up into the wind, line up on my slip, and cut throttle just enough to let the wind push me into my spot. It took a few attempts, but wasn’t too bad if I do say so myself. So at last, I’ve officially splashed. Fair Winds. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 14:55:03

Hi Todd,

Great story! 'Nothing like a little high drama for your first sail of the season

! I'm jealous ... 'wish I could trade places with you

.

'Hope you have a great sailing season, and I'm glad you made it back to the slip OK ... 'reminds me of the sort of thing that happens on Canyon Lake.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 19:57:57

Hey, Todd...

Nothing like an impromptu squall to get the old heart a goin'

and to gather experience!

Edited by - on

km0e
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2004 : 10:54:02

Todd, Great story! Here in the midwest where I sail, I Know that feeling well. Trying to beat the storm. I have a 1/4 mile of cove to the dock at The Lake I sail. Many times I have seen the sky darken and full throttle to the protection of the cove, Once or twice I have made it in time! This is my first year in a C-25 moving up from a C-22. Reading your story raises a question, You said you were full Keel up, leaning 10 to 15 degrees. I have always wondered about the self righting of the boat with the keel up. The 22 is also a SK. I always had in down around storms. Is it ok to bare pole with keel up in a high wind

Thank You, Jim.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2004 : 16:10:09

I have never heard of a 25 taking a knockdown much less one with the keel up, interesting question. Does anyone have any anecdotal info? One thing about moving from a 22 to a 25... the 25 keel does not lock down so, if it is self righting when up, then up may ultimately be the safer position in really serious doo doo.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2004 : 16:48:13

Several times, my fin keel boat has been far enough on her side to pull the rudder clear of the water. Any sailboat can get knocked down if the wind is strong enough, and they can get rolled over if the waves are big enough.

If a swing keel boat gets knocked down with the keel either up or down, the boat will right itself as soon as the wind pressure on the sails eases, and the boat will probably not suffer any structural damage. However, if a swinger has the keel up, it will take longer for the boat to right itself, because the lever that rights the boat is shorter. If you are in big seas, as well as strong wind, you don't want the boat to stay on its side any longer than absolutely necessary, because while she is on her side, a big wave could roll her on over, through 360 degrees, and that would probably be disastrous, regardless of whether it is a swing keel boat or a fin keel boat.

For that reason, I cast my vote for keeping the keel down. With the keel down, the boat is likely to keep her bottom down longer, and that is the best way to stave off disaster.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/10/2004 16:50:22

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2004 : 22:18:53

My only thought was that if the keel managed to get above horizontal it could slam into the trunk house with the potential to do some serious damage. In truth it would probably wedge and not slam anywhere unless it got quite a bit above horizontal.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2004 : 10:07:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My only thought was that if the keel managed to get above horizontal it could slam into the trunk house with the potential to do some serious damage. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's true, but, if you raise the keel, you increase the likelihood that the boat will roll past horizontal. If the keel is down, its leverage will be working to prevent the boat from rolling over that far.

My thinking is that, the worst things you can do to a sailboat (other than running into a big, hard object) are to roll it over, pitchpole it and drop it off the top of a wave. If any C25, with any type of keel, ever rolls over so far that the keel is above horizontal, there is a strong potential that the boat will not survive it, so, the best thing to do is to leave the keel down, in an effort to prevent the boat from rolling over that far.

For those who sail on a small inland lake, this discussion is mostly academic, because a C25 with the keel down is extremely unlikely to roll that far. In order for that to happen, a big wave has to hit the boat, after it is already on its side, and roll it over the rest of the way. Waves don't get that big on small inland lakes. People sailing on the Great Lakes and on the ocean should be concerned, but their best defense is to not sail in conditions where that is possible. Our boats are not designed to withstand true survival conditions. Westsails, Tartans, IPs and other bluewater boats are better able to withstand a rollover, but a rollover would threaten their survival as well. Our boats shouldn't be out in those conditions at all. If we are on big waters, we should head for shelter at the first sign of bad weather.

Edited by - on

km0e
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2004 : 11:39:42

In ref to serious doo doo. I see your point Frank, But when the storms come and you don't quite make it to shelter, It sure feels good to have the keel down. While I agree with Steve that Inland Lakes other than the Greats probably won't see waves big enough to roll her over, We get caught now and then in Thunderstorms. Many days in the Spring the forecast will call for a chance of Thunderstorms, possibly severe, I still go out and try to pay attention, But with Inland Lakes You don't always have an unlimited view of the horizon and will still get caught now and then. When I picture the boat and keel in my mind, The keel up moves the fulcrum up also making the balance point somewhere higher up the boat, That is like I said picturing it my mind, I am thinking now about the fulcrum remaining the same and it taking longer to roll back. Hummm? As I think more on this, I should worry more about lightning

Happy Sailing! Jim Sherrow

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2004 : 11:53:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by km0e
 Hummm? As I think more on this, I should worry more about lightning

Happy Sailing! Jim Sherrow
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now you've done it.

Lightning is a rather special topic on this board. Arlyn has done extensive work on the subject of sailboats and lightning. If you go to his site you will find the treatise.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2004 : 14:51:24

As one who sank a swinger (albeit a C22) I'd like to add my 2cents. We might not get waves much above 3' on inland lakes, but we sometimes get serious unexpected gusts. If a C25 swinger broaches with the keel up, there is much less righting moment (basic physics), therefore, a greater chance of a capsize. I would NEVER run a C25 SK in severe conditions, even bare poled, with the keel anywhere but full down.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2004 : 16:24:42

Speaking of heeling, I snapped this photo a couple of years ago at Brookville Lake. The rudder was still in the water. To look at the water surface, you wouldn’t think the wind was blowing hard enough to heel the boat that much.

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2004 : 15:35:26

During the course of this thread, I have been out 2 more times, each a close carbon copy of my first post. Dereks “Wednesday Sail” on the General Board and Steve Milbys hairy photo are making me wonder if the Wind Gods are having fun toying with us. Yesterday, after work, I invited my oldest son out to test the roller furler,( now repaired from breakage on outing #2). Aaron was on the tiller and I was below warming some Dinty Moore… and I could feel the wind pick up. Skies were cloudy and the barometer was dropping, but Aaron, like me, sometimes just has to get out on the water for therapeutic reasons. I poked my head out to assess the situation and could see a strong wind shadow heading our way. I told Aaron to get ready for some strong wind and I tried to store the stew before we got hit. Wham…(great shades of Steve Milbys photo), the boat rounded up with its rail buried and stuff was flying everywhere. This was probably our most fierce hit since we’ve had the boat. As we regrouped and headed down wind, I went forward to lower the main. I counted 5 sail slugs that were blown out. The furler had malfunctioned again, so I carefully went forward to figure things out and found a loop in the furling line wrapped around part of the drum. Anyhow we’re down to one working sail now, heading downwind at 6.7 knots, and sort of back in control. Plenty of adrenalin to go around.

As for the discussion on board up or board down, I sometimes find myself needing the board up, or partially up, in our very shallow lake ( 12 feet deep at its deepest point, in a regular water year…we are in our third year of serious drought). When I run aground while sailing, (until I can get below to crank up the keel), the keel acts as an anchor and we get tipped according to how strong the wind blows. When I first got the boat, I was really careful about keeping the keel down, but now, sometimes out of necessity, the keel is in various positions to comply with all the situations I find myself in. Please…give me some FAIR WINDS. Todd Frye

Edited by - Todd Frye on 04/16/2004 10:47:54

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