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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rope vs. Rope&Wire Halyards

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billob
Deckhand

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15 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2004 : 16:10:03

I had posted a question under another topic on this topic but decided it might be better as a new topic. On our C25 with tall rig we have rope and wire halyards. The wire seems harder to handle especially when you try to turn it over the mast winch when raising the sails.
Are all rope (low stretch) halyards better ? What are the pros and cons of rope vs. wire and rope ? I'm beginning to lean to all rope as the way to go - comments ?
Thanks
Bill O'Brien
OSPREY, Charleston, SC

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 16:30:49

I just converted to all rope. I used 3/8 inch line center spliced to 3/16 V-12. This V-12 is amazing stuff, it's capable of lifting 5000 lbs and is actually stronger than the wire. Doing this means that I did not have to change my sheaves at the top of the mast. The V-12 runs inside the 3/8 line for 9 feet - enough so that the V-12 is all the way to your winches and clutches when hauling tight.

Pros of all rope

(1) lighter - less weight aloft
(2) easier on the hands (you can pull on the V-12)
(3) more flexible (seems to go over the sheaves much easier and smoother)
(4) no meathooks (ever)

Cons

(1) you have to worry about chafe. If I see even one fiber sticking out of a $150 rope I cringe.
(2) you have to worry about UV protection. UV will weaken the rope. There is no way I can protect this line so I have to live with it.
(3) cost - the high tech ropes cost alot of $. If you go with all 5/16 you have to change the sheaves. That costs even more. $300 will get you the setup I have (main and jib). $550 to change the sheaves and go with all 5/16. I think you can get new wire/rope halyards for about $150 for both.

What I did was get the halyard about 3 yards longer than needed. I can cut out weakened parts and re-splice or re-tie in a few years. I am on a budget and I think this was $300 very well spent.

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Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 16:45:05

This is one of those questions with the eternal division of opinion, but I think the big factor is whether you have halyard winches. If so, going to all-rope will be a reasonable choice for the sake of the crew (if the winches are able to accept rope as well as wire). We live in the era of great rope technology and it shouldn't be difficult to find a good type of stretch-resistant line to use.

My 1984 standard rig has no halyard winches and rope and wire halyards; the wire part never comes down so far that you are pulling on wire, and I would prefer to keep the wire in the system for strength and to avoid stretch. These halyards are actually the 1984 originals and though they should be replaced they have not parted at the splice nor gotten nicked strands in all that time, which tells me they are not a more troublesome technology than all-rope halyards.

Rich Kokoska

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 18:59:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raskal
 This is one of those questions with the eternal division of opinion, but I think the big factor is whether you have halyard winches. If so, going to all-rope will be a reasonable choice for the sake of the crew (if the winches are able to accept rope as well as wire). We live in the era of great rope technology and it shouldn't be difficult to find a good type of stretch-resistant line to use.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rich,

I think you pretty much hit the target with your response. Only thing I would add is you really only need to use the really low streach (i.e. bigger $'s) line on the jib halyard. The main and the spinnaker simply do not ever create that much halyard tension on boats our size to worry tooooooo much about it. If the main halyard does show some streach, its easy to tighten it up a bit more as the wind picks up by tightening up the cunningham, etc..

I am surprised you can get away with no jib halyard winch however? Since as the wind comes up the draft in the sail moves aft, and that creates more weather helm (which is not fun to fight whether you race or just cruise). Even tightening the backstay with no increase in halyard tension will not adequately address the draft movement problem. Of course, I am not assuming you are REALLY strong and "don't need no stinkin' winches"... if thats the case, please accept my apologies and please do not come hurt me!!! <grin>

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 20:13:27

I found that the knots at the rope wire junction caused fouling hazards and caused me to be in the dangerous position of unfouling a knot from under a shroud tang in some pretty serious stuff. I looked at all of the lines and felt the newest highest tech line was overkill and less supple than several adequate lines of less breaking strength. I bought all rope 1/4" line from Layline it has a breaking strength of 4200 lbs and am very happy with it so far. I bought an even lower more supple rope for my spinnaker halyard, they should stretch.
Jim and Derek bought some serious boy toy halyards and I am green with envy but I am content with my choices.

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2004 : 21:45:05

Rope halyard can be swaped end for end each season evening out wear. Rope halyards slaping the mast wont damage the masts plating inside or out. Slicing is easy and they are easy on the hands. I changed to all rope when I had Wind Lass. No meat hooks either.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2004 : 08:08:37

Wire is a thing of the past on many boats our size. Most everyone listed the cons of wire above, I didn't see anything about the weight aloft that wire has so add that to the list.

If your seriously considering going to line a look at the www.Layline.com and don't forget to look at the specials under the "cordage section" (including the spliced stuff) They have every line known to sailing and then some usually at the best rates. Many times a bigger boat buys most of a reel, leaving a "dead ender" or a line tail that is a perfect size for our boat at a really cut rate. You might even be able to find a 3/8th line spliced to 3/16th line in the discount area (see frank hoppers "boy toy" comment a few posts above) for the price of a regular one with minimal cutting.

Before buying I'd recommend getting their catalog - its free and chocked full of info regarding- different kinds of line, line weights, line uses, loads, breaking strength etc. After reading up on the various stuff place your order over the phone. The staff is extremely knowledgable and all of them sail. They will steer you in the correct direction.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2004 : 11:17:04

Bill:

I'm with Rich on this one...but mainly because my wire/rope halyard works fine for me. If I were forced into replacement (i.e. broken halyard), I might look at it differently.

I also have no mast or cabintop winches to tighten the halyard, but swigging brings the main all the way up.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I am surprised you can get away with no jib halyard winch <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My old CDI furler brings the jib halyard back down the forstay into a little jam cleat built in the side of the unit. I cannot think how I could use a winch with this setup. I just keep it tight as I can get it.

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