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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Boat Speed

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s3tbuell
1st Mate

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47 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2004 : 16:38:08

I am wondering what are some average speeds of other 250wb and 250wk?
I dont know the wind speed but I seem to average around 6.5 mph on most days.
Had it up to 7 for 4 minutes or so but that was it.

Doyle
Oregon
Cohesion
WB #141

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2004 : 18:49:09

6.5 mph is around the magical number. It is less of course than the boat is capable of but seems to be the upper point of where the boat goes easily.

If motoring for example, it will quite easily go to 6.5 at one third throttle with an 8 hp motor. Getting it from 6.5 to 7.4 (its hull speed) takes another third of throttle and a significant hit of fuel economy. I've never been able to motor faster than hull speed of 7.4 mph.

It is reasonable to expect then that while under sail, more than 6.5 mph will take good conditions. Very often however, I've had no problems reaching and sustaining 7.4 mph under sail.

In fact, if not loaded too heavily and in prime conditions I've reached and sustained speeds of 8.5 mph. I know this to be true because I've sailed mine for several hours straight at 8.5 mph.

To exceed hull speed, its my personal opinion that the ratio of lift to drag has to be favorable. Loaded heavy for cruising and pulling a dink, getting past hull speed is doubtful. Drag has to be minimal and among other drag issues are the sails themselves. Exceeding hull speed is in my opinion, easier and safer on a beam to close reach than any other point.

Certainly a strong downwind leg can drive the boat faster than hull speed, but at a fair risk of it tripping over itself. A close reach finds the boat very stable and even willing to self steer. If under these conditions, canvas is flattened well to reduce drag, breaking hull speed is not difficult.

Those of us who fly model airplanes can quickly observe that two similar planes with the difference that one has a thick foil section and one a thin foil section will have very different flight characteristics. The thick foil will provide lots of lift. Sailors equate this to power, the ability to punch through surf and get the boat moving at lower wind levels. The thin foil plane will take longer to lift off the ground and will sink faster when speed is reduced, but it will go a lot faster than the thick foiled wing because it has far less drag.

In order to break hull speed on a beam or close reach, sails have to be hardened to have minimal drag when wind conditions are optimal, in the mid to upper teens. Old blown out sails may not be capable of doing so.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 06/05/2004 15:23:53

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2004 : 09:59:43

I've managed to maintain 6.1 Kts (GPS measured)for extended periods (20-40 minutes)on a reach. Occasionally will hit 6.8 kts briefly. Tide probably adds some to the equation.

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2004 : 13:05:15

We've never managed to maintain more than 6 knots or so for more than 10 minutes under sail, but we have maintained around 5.5 for 5 hours while crossing the Bay on a perfect day reach. Maybe our new jib will help get our speed up this year (the old was was, in the words of the sail loft, "shot").

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Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2004 : 22:41:08

I reached 7.5 knts on a reach while racing last Saturday. Winds 15knts,Temp 42o, and pouring down rain. Not an ideal day for sailing. the fun part was gybing at that speed! We did finish 2nd which is pretty good for us. I couldn't believe the crazy guys out there fishing that day!

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2004 : 17:29:56

OREGON????? 250?? Good boatspeed??? Why in the heck are you NOT on my list as interested in the National Regatta in Portland on July 15-17? I have been beating the bushes looking for 250s to come out and do a little "not too serious" racing....and socializing.....

We only have two 250s at this point and 3 trophies.....I think you should contact me, or go to the Racing link on this homepage, click on Fleet 94 site and join us in 6 weeks. Or, click on the stickie at the top of this page.

You will have a great time and learn a lot! Guaranteed!

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2004 : 11:59:11

Doyle,
I have managed around 50 knots but only when shes on the trailer!
Sorry...I'm corny and couldn't resist
Bill

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s3tbuell
1st Mate

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47 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2004 : 17:01:42

wow what great replies...but one thing I am a little confused about I stated 6.5 mph...some of you stated 6.8 kts hell thats 9 mph!!!! is this a wave length??? Or a Catalina??

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2004 : 17:24:07

Doyle, I think your conversion is a little off. 6.8 knots would be about 7.9 mph.

Use .86 to convert mph to nm.

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2004 : 13:38:14

Gary B.
I'd love to come to Oregon,But 2000+ miles without a tow vehicle is a little far! Bring them To the midwest again.

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2004 : 14:31:18

They're coming back, Jack, but we deserve our chance this year for a party.....You'd better get a tow vehicle; even "Midwest" could leave you with quite a ways to tow....!

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2004 : 23:58:47

With all due respect to the seniors,
anything over 6 knots is pretty amazing on a 250 in my experience. I hit 7.2 1 time on a very windy day running with the 130 jib poled out....we were surfing over the relatively small swells on Canyon Lake. You guys exceeding 7 knots for extended periods must have some mighty fine sails,
Steve

Edited by - ssteakley on 06/10/2004 23:59:47

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 07:54:23

Steve, I can testify that the 250 water ballast if kept reasonably light can in the right conditions sustain 7.3 knots on a close reach. The sail combination was full main and two turns of reef on a 110 headsail.

I maintained those speeds for several hours on one occassion during a 90 mile crossing of Lake Huron. Incidentally, she did this with a locked helm requiring absolutely no attention.

One item that may have a bearing is the rudder... the third generation rudder has a very thick foil and may have too much drag to make those speeds possible.

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s3tbuell
1st Mate

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47 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 16:28:21

Arlyn are you sure you dont mean 7.3 mph not knots? 8.39 mph is real fast for a 250.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 13:54:00

Doyle, I'm sure... Keep in mind that I'm well aware that the 250's hull speed is around 6.2 knots. Hull speed limitation is all about the difficulty of a displacement hull climbing over its bow wave from a lowered posture.

Difficult does not equal impossible...just that it requires a great deal of effort to do so. The c250 and many other mono hulls differ from their brother keel boats in some regards and in some ways can be similar to the light weight skiff. The 250 is capable of producing a lot of power for its weight. If that power can be managed and weight and drag are kept minimal.... exceeding the normal hull speed equation is quite possible. Even the heavier C25 can and does experience this... though I'm not sure they do it on a close reach.... have to ask them.

Remember... I stated that the 250 must not be loaded too heavily, and I also suggested that the 3rd generation rudder might offer too much drag to allow overcoming the bow wave. I also do not know if there is a difference between the center board and the wing.... I did it on a center board.

Simply, what I can say with conviction is that I sailed my 250 at 7.3 knots or 8.5 mph for a period between 3-4 hours without attention to helm.

There is a short video section from an eight minute tape on my web site during that time... it didn't occur to me to video the gps to log the speed in the video. The speed was not however the rusult of surfing down wave fronts as is sometimes noted when sailing off wind. In fact, there was some amount of chop as can be seen and heard to swoosh so the boat was actually confronting the swell rather than riding it.

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/c250_3.wmv

The video was taken during a ninety mile crossing between South Baymouth on Canada's Manitoulin Island and Harrisville, Mi.

I've made this crossing several times, it is an open water crossing.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:37:25

I was out last Wed sailing solo. I was doing 6.2 knots on a broad reach with all the sail up in winds of approx 5 -10 knots.

My fastest speed record was earlier this season in a very heavy blow with the main sail double reefed and full 110 genoa out - got up to 7.2 knots. I was more concerned with heel than looking at the speed log. I had trouble keeping the heel angle below 30 degrees. I eventually pulled in some of the genny. When things got rougher, I pulled in all the sail and motored through between two islands to get back into the harbor.

I was past cocktail hour. What's a sailor to do?

Alan Therrien
"Moonpenny"
C250K #418

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