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Teakman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/29/2004 : 09:06:29

Hi, this is Mike. Amy and I have owned "Windchime" for a month now and we are really enjoying her. Windchime is a fixed keel Catalina 25 circa 1977.

What I would like to know from you experienced sailors is what to expect from the boat under certain circumstances. Our boat has the standard rig and we typically hank on the genoa, which is probably a 120?

When the wind kicks up and the boat heels over more than 15 degrees, how will the boat act if I do nothing? Will she turn over? Head her self up? Take water over the rail?

When should we reef? Does that include reducing the head sail to the 100 jib? I believe you drop the mainsail and literally hook it to the hook on the boom at the tack, but our reefing lines at the clew are not in working order. How should it be rigged and what, if anything, should we do to reef without the proper set up?

Thanks in advance for all the help.

Mike Masten

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 09:46:21

Hi Mike,

Heeling to 15 degrees is not a problem at all, as long as you are comfortable. I usually reef when I see routine heeling in excess of 30 degrees. For me (SR w/ a 135 RF genoa) this happens usually around 15 to 16 knots. My first course of action will be to take the genoa down to somewhere around a 90-100. At 18-20 knots I'll take a reef in on the main. Remember that the C25 is a masthead rig, and as such is driven much more by the head than the main, so great gains can be made by rolling up the genoa a little, and spilling some wind off the main with the traveler. But always, always reef right when you feel you should, your comfort and saftey is much more important than coaxing that last .5 knot of upwind speed.

The C25 likes to heel, and works more efficiently when it does, to a point.

I've had my C25 is some pretty good blows, never had it turn over, but have had water over the lee rail. At this point it just isn't fun, even if it is safe. I've been as far as taking the main down and leaving a few square feet at the head just to maintan some control. This is when I head for shore, the C25 was not designed for this type of sailing, and mabey I'm not either.

As far as the technicals of how to reef, it should be pretty simple, if your reefing system is not working, fix it, as it is a real saftey issue. All it requires at a minimum is a line at the clew and tack. A single line reefing system led aft is one of the simplest and most important modifications I think one can make.

Hope this helps a little,

Lance
85 SR/FK

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:04:00

Note: answers to the rest of your questions "depend" on a lot of factors... but here's my take on things.

-- "which is probably a 120? "

Most common C25 headsails are one of 3 sizes... 110% 135% and 150% (percent of fore-triangle area). If you have a smaller sail in your inventory, my guess is that you're sailing with a 135. The clew of the 150 comes waaay back on the boat.

--"boat heels over more than 15 degrees"

At 15 degrees, you're right 'in the groove' with a C25... presenting the most effective waterline length. Beyond 25 or 30 degrees your hull effeciency falls off. Right now, it may feel like a lot of heel, but you've got a LONG way to go before she will dip a rail in the water.

-- "how will the boat act if I do nothing"

How the boat will respond depends on how your sails are trimmed. Normally you want to have a bit of 'weather helm' in the boat. That means if you let go of the tiller, the boat will turn "to weather" (i.e. up into the wind). This is achieved by balancing the sails so the lateral forces aft of the mast will be slightly greater than those forward. A bit of weather helm improves both effeciency and safety.

If you 'lose it' the boat will go to weather and relieve pressure on the sails. A boat with lee helm will turn downwind.. which can cause all kinds of havoc in high winds.

Next time out, experiment with trim on both the jib and main... leaving your hand off the rudder, sheet the main and jib in and out. You'll probably find you can actually steer the boat by altering your sail trim.

If WILDLY overpowered and not allowed to correct itself, the boat may go into a knockdown state (mast flat in the water). Unless conditions are really extreme, the boat will recover, stand up again and start sailing. It takes quite a lot to knock a C25 down... big thunderstorm gusts or such. Paying a modicum of attention to conditions will prevent such mishaps. Most 'crash' situations in sailboats will have a spinnaker in the picture somewhere (grins).

(note: in 'brisk' conditions, make sure your cockpit lockers are latched shut and put a board or two in the companionway)

-- "When should we reef?"

Whenever you're uncomfortable. As your experience increases, so will your comfort levels and the reefing point will go up. That said, when the boat is consistently heeled over 30 degrees might be a good guideline. (racers will be giggling at that suggestion).

Typical sequence is to put a reef in the main first (takes a minute)... if that's not enough, then reduce the headsail size. If that's not enough, then a second reef in the main.. followed by either a still smaller headsail or sailing under the main or jib alone.

-- "How should it be rigged"

On the home page of this site, there's a section on documentation... the owners manual reproduced there has a page showing how the reefing lines should be rigged.

Edited by - on

joegeiger
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:28:09

Another factor to "tuning the rig" is to make sure the mast is straight or slightly raked. This can have a big effect on weather or lee helm. I have an adjustable backstay that allows me to bend the mast slightly. This does 2 things...it can reduce the amount of weather helm (in conjunction with sail management) and it also flattens the sail depowering it. Many users of this forum have recommended "Sail Power" by Wallace Ross. It covers, in easy to understand terms, how to set draft, trim, and also how to tune your rig to get the optimum results for the given wind and sea conditions. I got my copy off of Amazon.com used for $6.25... There is also a couple of great articles on tuning the rig and understanding weather helm in the tips and tricks section of this site. Good luck and happy sailing.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:30:48

Bruce and Lance,
Excellent replies. Just on a note of comfort. My wife would never go sailing with me till we got the Cat 25. Our old boat was just too tippy for her. She has been on our new boat with the sails flat on the water with a smile from ear to ear because she felt so safe on the boat. This is such a stable friendly boat, that moves along nicely. You are going to love it.

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:45:03

Hi Mike,

Here is a link to the C25 Parts Catalog that shows the standard jiffy reefing system. http://www.catalina25-250.org/manbro/pictures/pc19.gif

Of course, you'll see a two line system. There are also single line reefing systems (I use the single line system on Snickerdoodle). And, if you have your halyards led aft on the cabin top, you'll want to lead your reefing lines aft as well.

As stated already, 15 degrees of heel is okay. In fact, I try to keep Snickerdoodle in a 10 degree to 20 degree heel angle most of the time. At around a sustained 25 degree heel start thinking about reefing as you'll be developing more leeway than you want; and too much wind is probably spilling out of your sails. Reefing will restore the boat to the 10-20 degree groove and you'll both sail faster and straighter.

Here is approximately the sequence that I use on Snickerdoodle (tall rig/fin keel)for "proper" sail selection and easy cruising.
Breeze 0 to 7 knots - full main & 155% drifter jib
Breeze 8 to 11 knots - full main & 150% Genny
Breeze 12 to 15 knots - main with flattening reef & 150% Genny
Breeze 16 to 20 knots - main with first reef & 150% Genny
Breeze 21 to 25 knots - main with first reef & either 110% jib or 100% Blade jib (depending on point of sail - 110% for reaching, Blade for close hauled)
Breeze 26 to 30 knots - main with double reef & either 110% or Blade
Breeze 30 to 40 knots - main with double reef & storm jib
Breeze 40+ knots - main with double reef & no jib

Of course, judgement determines sail selection. I had three very inexperienced sailors out with me last Saturday afternoon. A thunder storm had just passed through and the breeze was in the 12 to 20 range. I elected to sail with a reefed main and Blade jib to make things comfortable for my guests. I figure that most guests would rather remember the romance of sailing than the adventure of sailing.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:58:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When the wind kicks up and the boat heels over more than 15 degrees, how will the boat act if I do nothing? Will she turn over? Head her self up? Take water over the rail? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> If you do nothing as the wind strength increases, the boat's angle of heel will increase. Eventually, some water might spill over the gunwale onto the leeward cockpit seat. Depending on how the rig is tuned and how the sailplan is balanced, the boat will either (1) head herself up ("round up"), or she will (2) continue heeling until the rudder comes out of the water, or nearly so, and she will just wallow on her side until you either ease the mainsheet, or until the wind pressure on the sails abates. On a small inland lake, which can only generate waves of moderate size, there's no significant danger that she'll roll over or sink, although those things are possible if something breaks under the stress, like keelbolts, for example. In big waters, where big waves can be generated, it is more dangerous. If a big wave hits the boat while she is on her side, it could roll the boat over. You can avoid those hazards, however, by reefing early, being prepared to quickly ease the mainsheet and steer the boat to windward when the boat is overpowered, and ultimately by staying at the dock when the conditions are either too much for the boat or beyond your level of experience.

But, don't be intimidated by the possibility of those situations. They are extremely remote, and we wouldn't trust the safety of our families to the boat if that wasn't so.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When should we reef? Does that include reducing the head sail to the 100 jib? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> When my boat is overpowered (excessive heeling or excessive rudder pressure), and I am trying to decide whether to reef the mainsail or to reduce the size of the headsail, I completely ease the mainsheet while the wind is gusting. If the boat's angle of heel is no longer excessive when sailing under jib alone, then I reef the mainsail. By reducing mainsail area, it will help the boat point to windward, it will reduce the rudder pressure, and the mainsail will not generate so much heeling moment. However, if the boat is still heeling excessively, or very nearly so, when I completely ease the mainsheet, then it is time to reduce the size of the headsail. When I reduce the size of the headsail, I usually tuck in a flattening reef in the mainsail (most C-25 mainsails don't have a flattening reef. In that case, I would probably tuck in the first full reef, unless I was racing.). If the flattening reef does not sufficiently relieve the rudder pressure or the excessive heeling, then I tuck in the first full reef in the mainsail.

The C-25 is a boat with a masthead rig. (As between the mainsail and jib, the jib is the biggest, most powerful sail on a boat with a masthead rig. The mainsail helps the boat point to windward and it supplements the power of the jib.) The logic of my test is that, if you eliminate the power of the mainsail from the equation, and, if the boat is still overpowered when only the jib is driving the boat, then you need to reduce the size (and power) of the jib. (This test doesn't work on a boat with a fractional rig, like the C-250.)

From reading some of the other posts, it occurs to me that the term "overpowered" might seem vague. To me it means that the boat is heeling excessively and there is excessive tiller pressure. In that sense, the boat itself tells you when it's time to change the sail configuration. Bill Holcomb's chart is excellent, as always, but many of us don't have windspeed indicators on our boats, so we need a practical way of making those judgment calls.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/29/2004 11:13:39

Teakman
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 11:01:39

Thanks all. Great information. I just looked at the drawing of a reefing system. I'm not sure where the line goes at the aft end of the boom where it is led through a block to a cleat and through the reefing point. Does it go to a cleat on the other side?

Mike

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 11:16:25

There should be a small pad eye on the port side of the boom. You should run the line through it and tie a stopper knot on the end.

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sanibelle
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 11:29:27

It would seem that you would get excessive weather helm with the main alone or excessive lee helm with the headsail alone, when sailing in fresh winds. Is this true?

Joe R.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 12:33:11

A couple of more things to do to optimize your sail plan include outhaul tension, halyard/cunningham tension, backstay tension, genoa car placement, traveller position, and vang tension.

I generally make these adjustments before reducing headsail size or reefing, but when these adjustments are no longer effective, it's time for headsail reduction and/or reefing.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 12:43:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sanibelle
 It would seem that you would get excessive weather helm with the main alone or excessive lee helm with the headsail alone, when sailing in fresh winds. Is this true?

Joe R.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Being primarily a singlehanded sailor with roller furling, I sail quite a bit with just a 135 headsail when then winds are getting up there and I find the boat sails just fine.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 14:38:33

Notice where people are standing in this picture. This is a fixed keel, single reef main, 110 jib and about 20-25 knots of wind. My guess is they are at about 35 degrees. They have a long way to go before things get hairy.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 15:25:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It would seem that you would get excessive weather helm with the main alone or excessive lee helm with the headsail alone, when sailing in fresh winds. Is this true?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I agree with what Don said, but I haven't thought much about it, and can't explain why it works that way.

When you are using it as a test to determine whether to reef or to reduce the headsail, it isn't really important in any event, because you only sail it that way for 15-20 seconds, to see how much power the sail is generating all by itself.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 18:25:51

15 degrees of heel is just when it is getting fun! Anything less is a boat ride not "sailing"!

Great picture, Frank. Notice a nearly perfect slot, very flat sail shape for the strong wind conditions, one reef in the main, slight weather helm ... The helm is being held up by the helmsman and you can see some rudder turblence in the water - but the weather helm is slight because the helmsman is not struggling with the tiller as he would if the boat is rounding up - or about to. When my boat rounds up the rudder makes a roar like a waterfall. All the crew is on the weather rail and nothing is outboard of the boat (complies with class rules). Also note that the traveller is "down" meaning adjusted to the leeward to reduce heeling.

The boat is under perfect control and I'm sure is making at least 6 knots.

5 to 10 more degrees of heel could easily be handled by simply easing the mainsheet a few inches during a gust, or, ...

What I like to do is head up during that gust a little. It reduces heeling, lowers boat speed a little, stops the roundup, but you can claw a long way to windward. When the gust weakens go back to your normal course and keep boatspeed up.

If it gets too much and the boat starts to round up out of control, develops significant weather helm (requires a lot of force to keep on course), becomes frightening or not fun, reduce sail or turn significantly downwind.

It is almost impossible to have your boat go over and stay down. I routinely get mine over to 45 degrees. This much heel reduces wind force and she'll right herself and turn into the wind. It takes some time for you to trust this. Make sure things are properly stowed inside!!!!

After a day like those folks in Franks picture I come home with every muscle sore. A hot tub is a good thing for a sailor to have.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 21:27:18

Interesting stuff in the photo...

I like the compass mount on the hatch... would be nice to see more detail on it.

It appears the lifelines are run to the top of the pulpit... just like somebody was asking about a few days ago.

Must not be trying to point too high.. the traveller is sheeted all the way to leeward?

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2004 : 09:27:46

Noticed the compass(?) mount on the hatch also. Wonder how the hatch opens with the boards in - unless the top board was modified to fit the compass attachment maybe?

Noticed yesterday that the traveler on the C25 next to mine was moved up to the top rail of the stern pulpit. There's more move-around room for the helmsman and it keeps the sheet/lines from dragging on the back edge of the bimini. I'm thinking I might do the same thing to mine.

Steve

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 06/30/2004 : 11:12:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 ...Noticed yesterday that the traveler on the C25 next to mine was moved up to the top rail of the stern pulpit. There's more move-around room for the helmsman and it keeps the sheet/lines from dragging on the back edge of the bimini. I'm thinking I might do the same thing to mine...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

With the traveller mounted on the stern pulpit, how does the mainsheet get around the backstay?

Edited by - dlucier on 06/30/2004 11:13:53

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 00:48:15

Dlucier wrote: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With the traveller mounted on the stern pulpit, how does the mainsheet get around the backstay?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Great question. I'll admit I was enthused about the increased headroom under the mainsheet (I'm almost 6' 4") and didn't inspect for the functionality of the traveler setup. Went back down to the marina and it appears that whenever the boom is to port of the backstay, the mainsheet would be forced to bend around the front of the backstay. That setup would be clearly dumb and the resulting chafing would be a major and constant problem.

So, until I can come up with information to the contrary, I have come to the conclusion that the traveler mounted on the pulpit rail must be a temporary rigging to eliminate the possibility of the mainsheet dragging on the back edge of the bimini top (which mine does, by the way) while the owner has gone north for the summer.

I'll let you know if that turns out to be the case.

Steve

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bobmac
1st Mate

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47 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 13:24:42

Assuming all ballast stays intact, the boat would broach before it would go over wouldn't it ? If anyone has broached their Cat25, could you describe the conditions, sail config, and resultant recovery ?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 08:02:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Assuming all ballast stays intact, the boat would broach before it would go over wouldn't it ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In The Annapolis Book of Seamanship, John Rousmaniere says: "Broaching occurs when the steerer loses control of the helm and the boat heads up into the wind radically. On a run or reach, she will round up until her side is exposed to the wind and waves, which may then smash and even capsize her."

Previously, I described the C25s behavior as follows: "Depending on how the rig is tuned and how the sailplan is balanced, the boat will either (1) head herself up ("round up"), or she will (2) continue heeling until the rudder comes out of the water, or nearly so, and she will just wallow on her side until you either ease the mainsheet, or until the wind pressure on the sails abates. On a small inland lake, which can only generate waves of moderate size, there's no significant danger that she'll roll over or sink, although those things are possible if something breaks under the stress, like keelbolts, for example. In big waters, where big waves can be generated, it is more dangerous. If a big wave hits the boat while she is on her side, it could roll the boat over."

To answer your question, the boat won't necessarily broach before it will go over. It depends on many variables.

A boat can broach when overpowered by main and jib, or by a spinnaker, or when running down the face of a steep wave.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/06/2004 08:40:09

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 08:41:56

Years ago Coleman company of Wichita bough Holder boats. They asked several of us to sail a Holder 20 in one of our regattas. I was on the winches. We went into a death roll with the chute up and after he boat went from a port broach to a starboard broach and when it went back again it threw all three of us off the boat. The boat rounded up, we grabbed a line in the water and levitated back onto the boat. Anyone ever do that on a 25? I kind of assume we are so heavy that once down we come back up rather slowly.

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:26:21

If in all the excitement of lots of wind and being overwhelmed with trying to remember what to do…take a break from the action to collect your thoughts by heaving to.

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/seamanship/index.cfm?articleID=bthlnd021

I like to practice this maneuver often, as well as a few spontaneous MOB drills.
Make sure you have PFD’s ready when you reef. If you go forward, be tethered. Anchor should be ready to deploy immediately in an emergency. If you went MOB, could your crew take over? Fair winds. Todd Frye

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