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rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/18/2004 : 18:52:39

http://home.comcast.net/~fleet94/race%20results.htm

The results of the Catalina 25/250 nationals are posted on the Fleet 94 website. I'll let others chime in on the details of the event but I think it is accurate to say that even though the weather was warm and the winds were light everyone had a great time. We had a super photographer, Fleetingimagesphotography.com. Over 2500 images were shot and many of those will be posted on our website in the next week or so.

Ray Clift
Buzz 1361 sk/tr
Oregon

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2004 : 21:48:32

We sure did have a great time! A different social event each night culminating in an enjoyable awards evening. As Ray said, the winds were light for all but one race, and we did have 2 races abandoned Saturday morning because of no wind. (Naturally, half an hour after abandonment the wind came up...) 'Twas wondrous strange to see boats anchored on the course waiting for wind. Mother Nature has a weird sense of humor!
Fleet 94 should be mighty proud!
One of the nicest parts was meeting all the folk who,up until now, had just been signatures on the Forum.
Incidentally, in the 5th race we saw 7.9 knots on the GPS upwind,down current,with just a 150% and a full main. Downwind we struggled to make 3 knots against the current...
Derek

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 07/19/2004 11:31:11

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 06:34:35

Many, many thanks to all who attended the 2005 National Regatta. I am sorry that the wind wasn't better; we often get good air, but we knew the Saturday morning races were a gamble.......

Congratulations to the crews of these boats, especially....Doug Dillon on Intensive Care, the SR champ, Alice Patten on Tybreaker, the TR winner, and Tony Partain on Trading Time, the 250 winner.

We had 22 boats enter, including one Fun Fleet boat, but one Tall Rig (Doug Wood from Idaho) had to turn around right after he arrived due to a tragic drowning of a family member. We had Bill Meinert who is still returning to Indiana with his boat as this is written, boats still on their way back to California or up to the San Juans to cruise, and boats from all over Washington and Oregon. We had fly-in crew members from Texas (Derek C.), New York (Don Peet), N. Carolina (Clif), Michigan (Jody), Missouri (Trading Time crew), and Bill's crew from Indiana. We all hope that this is the start of even bigger and better National Championships in the future.

Thanks to my Fleet 94 mates for all the wonderful help on the regatta.

My wish is that we sort out the controversies that arose about "equality", etc., but I also hope we can find a way to compete without fracturing our relatively small turnouts and fleets any further.

Hope all participants came away having gotten their money's worth, and having learned a few things (even if it's about sailing in a fair amount of current),

Sincerely,

Gary Bruner
s/v Encore!
Fleet 94 Captain
Vice Commodore

P.S. Send criticisms to Clifton Thompson....this is NOT a good time to send them to ME! Okay, back to bed......

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 09:22:14

P.S. Send criticisms to Clifton Thompson....this is NOT a good time to send them to ME! Okay, back to bed...... - Gary

Hi Gary,

I can't imagine anyone would complain ... you and your fleet worked your hind sides off putting on this regatta ... any glitches y'all might have had were minor, I'm sure. Your efforts will also be invaluable to Frank as he and his crew prepare for next year's regatta ... the tradition will live on, and the Association will be much the stronger for it.

I wish I could have been there, and I know that many others would like to have attended, too. THANK YOU for all of your hard work!

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 10:52:01

Gary It was a very well run event and with a great group of people. Don't let one sour grape take the pride from running a great event. Between your effort and the help of Fleet 94 I am surprised that Cliff hasn't requested that you run the next one. Again I would like to say thanks for your effort.

Also I would like to say this was a fun group of people. At the end of the races there was a wicked water cannon fight. Very entertaining.

Edited by - Tony Partain on 07/20/2004 05:16:50

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 20:42:24

I got home this morning (Monday at 3 a.m.) after a long delay in Chicago and just beginning to return to the real world.

Gary and Fleet 94 did an outstanding job of running the National Championship regatta. And, everyone had a great time! I know I did as I skipper Steve and Charlotte Dube' Catalina 250. It was also great getting to meet and know some wonderful and warm people who share a common interest - sailing Catalina 25/250's. The racing was good, the social life was good, what mnore can one say.

Next year it's Lake Chaney in Kansas. Come on y'awl come and mak2005 even greater than 2004!

Way to go Gary and Fleet 94!

Edited by - on

barmstro
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 04:17:14

The 2004 Nationals in Portland were fantastic. The commarodery, new friendships, steep learning curve (on my part) all made for a great time. Gary and crew I can't thank you enough for all that was done there. Maybe next time a little more wind. I think the light wind and strong current put us all in the steep learning curve. My grandaughter Victoria, Crew member Skip, and Punkins all loved it as well.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 09:58:56

We at Lake Cheney are thoroughly intimidated. Good job fleet 94. Please send me a management debriefing.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 10:09:37

I'm curious about the keel types for the C250s. Were they all wings or WBs or mixed? If there was a mix, how did each finish?

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 10:26:28

Steve mine is a wing and the other two are water ballast. If you take my PHRF times and combine the whole fleet (C25,C25 tall rig and 250's) the 250 Wing keel boat beat everybody. In every race we started 5 minutes behind the C25's and we sailed through the fleet and finished with the leaders.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 10:28:45

I did a comparison between the C250's and Alice Patten's C25 TRFK (the boat that Judy & I were crew on). Thanks to Gary on the Race Committee who sent me the full results including finishing times.
The C25 TR's and the C250's had the same start.
In the 5 very light air races Tony Partain's TR C250 did a horizon job on everyone. In the other race where we had good wind he beat us by 33 seconds. We beat the other faster C250 by margins of 2 mins 28 secs to 9 mins 19 secs. The margin over the slower 250 varied from 2 mins 50 secs to 18 mins 27 secs.
Whether this proves anything I'm not sure - but I'd be interested in y'alls comments.
Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 12:52:31

Frank, No need to be intimidated! Be motivated and competitive enough to make yours better yet!

Steve, Here is the keel break down, although it is not listed in the results, I think:

In the SR class, all boats you can consider SWINGERS except
the winner, Intensive Care, was a fin, the #5 boat, Courtship is a fin, and the # 10 boat, Ali Paroosa was a fin. #14, Mandalay, is a wing keel. Suffice it to say that the fins were sprinkled throughout the fleet (and they all carried a spin or asym).

In tall rigs, Tybreaker was fin; Buzz a swinger. The one that had to retire due to a family tragedy was a Fin.

As Tony mentioned, the 250s were: winner Trading Time, a TR wing, while the other two were WBs with small headsails as well. Although Tony is correct that his boat sailed very well in the light stuff, I am not convinced that the PHRF numbers are accurate enough to draw any conclusions about how he faired against other fleets, except, of course by real elapsed times.....and by that measure, he kicked butt as well. I was amazed at how well Trading Time did out there in the light stuff.

What we learned, especially in the light conditions, is that it was tough for the Jib and Main (JAM) boats to compete, even with the PHRF numbers that we used for our attempt at "equality". The effect of a knot or so of current is to make the downwind/upstream leg sufficiently longer than the current aided beat, that the PHRF handicap was probably not enough.

Interestingly, in the one good race (#5) on Saturday where we had air that might have been 10 plus or so, and the wind clocked around so that even my asym could reach the downwind leg, the JAM boats won! Longwind was first, Equinox second, I was third with an asym, and then Scott Hefty (who had a great week sailing a JAM boat in tough conditions) was forth. We all beat the big spinnaker boats in that race. It was great to get a little revenge just once in the regatta! ;)

All in all, in this venue with light air and current, though, the sail plan had more to do with how it all turned out than did the keel configuration, IMHO. In general, the more sail area for downwind, the better you did. I congratulate the JAM boats for some excellent sailing out there. Trust me...if we had had consistent 10+ knot winds, or different conditions, the results might well have been different; just look at how mixed up was the fleet in race 5!

Hope this sheds some light.....

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR
Vice Commodore
Fleet 94 Captain

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 15:20:08

Gary you forgot to mention the money I sent to you to throw the race so I could win!!!! LOL

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 16:15:14

This was undoubtedly the year for the tall rig C250. This year's light air was ideal for that boat, but, even so, Tony must have sailed it extremely well to whup the tall rig C25s with spinnakers. It would be interesting to see Tony Partain and Bryan Beamer (2003 C250 Champion, SR/WK) go head-to-head in moderate winds. At some windspeed, the tall rig would lose its advantage, and the standard rig would gain an advantage. Since they're both excellent sailors, it would be a fair test of the different configurations of the C250. Maybe Tony will go to Kansas next year to defend his title. I'll be surprised if Bryan isn't there.

A C250 SR/WB is kicking butt pretty consistently in the cruiser's fleet at my lake, so I know the WB is no slouch.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 16:21:10

"Tony must have sailed it extremely well to whup the tall rig C25s with spinnakers."
Steve - we didn't run a chute and after the first day, neither did Ray. And yes, Tony did sail it well - he told me that if the wind kicked up above about 10k he would have a problem...
Derek

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 17:07:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">he told me that if the wind kicked up above about 10k he would have a problem...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How well does your reefing system work? I spent plenty of time practicing my reefing just in case the wind picked up and I had to revert to my Hobie days of feathering the main.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 20:24:36

Tony - if you had had to reef you'd be a standard rig - which would have made the races most interesting! I was impressed as heck with the light air performance of your TR. I think we performed rather well with just a main and a 150%.
Incidentally on "TSU" we can reef in about 25 seconds (the record is 21!)
Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 22:04:59

Wasn't the TR 250 dropped after just a few years? I think the results prove the reason--it's amazing in very light air, and compromised in anything above that. I saw one (WK/TR) rigged on a trailer back when the 250 was pretty new, and it looked FAST just standing there!

Congrats to everyone involved--wish I could've been there (as crew on Trading Time)!

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 23:37:49

"I think the results prove the reason--it's amazing in very light air, and compromised in anything above that."

Dave,

This comment makes me "bristle". The results "prove" nothing of the kind! In race 5 (I have no real proof of what the wind strength was ), which was the most wind we saw, Tony had by FAR the best elapsed time on the course! Would you like some help in reading the results page? Why would you want to say that the boat is "compromised"....based on these results?......Incredible, and potentially inflammatory, IMHO.

I am glad you said you wished you had been here sailing on the boat. You could have been on one, I think. Others flew out from there to be involved. But if you choose to stay home, please at least study the results before posting your conclusion that a boat is "compromised". I would have loved to see Tony sail that sucker in a big breeze; I have no reason to suspect he would not have been quite strong......

Just a bit touchy these days, (and protective of our participants, I guess)

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 00:26:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it's amazing in very light air, and compromised in anything above that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As long as it wasn't a compromising position!!! LOL Can you say broach?

I believe that the tall rig can be raced in heavy air efficiently if you have a reefing system that allows for a good sail shape and have the talent to drive the boat that is tuned properly. The only thing you give up is the extra weight if the taller mast. I prefer this set up to have a wider range of performance. Get a little more on the low end and give up a little on the high end.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 07:29:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I believe that the tall rig can be raced in heavy air efficiently if you have a reefing system that allows for a good sail shape and have the talent to drive the boat that is tuned properly. The only thing you give up is the extra weight if the taller mast. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree, but that extra weight aloft is a disadvantage. When the wind gets strong enough to require my tall rig C25 to reef, my sail area advantage over the standard rig boat decreases, but my boat has an additional disadvantage of carrying more weight aloft. At that point, the standard rig boat becomes much harder for the tall rig to beat. I'm sure the same is true for the tall and standard rig C250.

Like you, Tony, I am willing to compromise to get a wider range of performance, getting a lot more on the low end and giving up a little on the high end. If I sailed in an area where the average winds are considerably higher than on my home inland lake, I might prefer the standard rig.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 12:25:28

I would love to hear from Doug Dillon and how he put together a fantastic weekend of great races. From want I understand he stepped up to the plate for this event. He had formidable competition in Terry Annis and Gary Bruner. Does anybody know how he did on the starting line? Terry and Doug had several very close races and a couple only seconds apart.

Edited by - Tony Partain on 07/21/2004 12:32:50

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 16:17:43

I sailed Steve and Charlotte Dube's 250 - wb, std rig, 110 jib, and we did very well considering the conditions - each race we were in contention with Tony at the weather mark, and then lost it on the downwind leg. That really seemed to be the point that the extra sail area really paid off. Tony was running a 150 and took a insignificant penelty for using it. It would have interesting to see what would happen if we had 12-18 winds, and the Tony needed to reduce sail. The results might have been the same, but might also have been closer within the 250 fleet.

I think Tony and crew did a tremendous job with their boat and are deserving of their first in class. It would be great to see both Tony and Bryan on Lake Cheney next summer - to see two competitive 250's sailed. Come on guys, you can do it!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 22:46:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary B.
 This comment makes me "bristle". The results "prove" nothing of the kind!...Incredible, and potentially inflammatory, IMHO.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
SORRY!!! I used the wrong word... How about "suboptimal"? In any case, Catalina dropped the configuration for SOME reason... It may be a hotrod, but if reefing is appropriate at 10 knots or above, it's just not configured as a family cruiser--the market Catalina is building for. It's great that somebody lucked into one and can whoop the rest of you, but then why not include J-24s at Nationals?

I won't respond to the "why I didn't fly out" challenge. The reasons transcend anything that could have possibly happened at your party. But I'm glad everyone had fun.

Cooling it for a while...

Edited by - on

Loren H.
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 02:16:52

What an incredible learning experience! My crew and I are now undergoing therapy to try and integrate back into society...

On a more somber note, those of you who admired the F-15Eagles and F-18Hornets taking off overhead might find this story tragic:

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-7/1090456459113680.xml

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 02:24:56

Dave,

Okay...I over-reacted. I just felt (and still do) that the remark could have been taken as VERY insulting, and that the results we saw proved simply that the boat was very fast in the winds we had. We had no proof that the boat was "compromised", even more than a J-24. ? Evidently, Tony was not insulted by the comment, and I thought he would be......

As for the challenge about flying out....again I apologize. I forgot that you have been through great tragedy in the last 7 months or so. There ARE more important things than National Regattas, as we were reminded this week, as one of our entrants had to drop out and return home after the loss of a family member.

I think I just had too much invested in this darn thing. I felt your comment was potentially fractious, and I over-reacted in a way that was not appropriate. We have too much divisiveness as it is...I don't want to add to it. Please accept my apology for over-reacting.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore (until elections)
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - Gary B. on 07/22/2004 02:29:55

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