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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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20" shaft???

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clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/18/2004 : 23:39:46

can I get by with a 20 inch shaft. They just seem to much easyier to find

Kamalla 1980 C25 SK/TR

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 05:09:29

Depends where you sail, or actually, where you motor. In most cases (90%) a 20" shaft will do fine, but you may need to move your bracket down a bit. In my experience when pushing aginst serious chop, the 25" shaft comes out of the water almost as easily. If you are buying a new motor, order a 25" definitly, but if you find a good deal on a 20" used or something, and you sail on an inland lake, my thoughts would be that it would be fine.
I sail the Great Lakes, which can see some pretty serious short chop, and I sailed a 20" shaft half of last year, no real problems.

Lance
85 FK/SR

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 08:11:04

I have a 20" shaft on my Mariner 9.9. I did have to relocate the motor mount downward. It works, here in the Chesapeake, as Lance says, 90% of the time. When it doesn't work -- big seas -- I shouldn't be out there anyhow.

Brooke

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 11:15:37

It also depends on whether or not you ever go to the bow while the engine is running. My 25 lifts with me on the bow.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 17:19:05

The Tohatsu/Nissan regular "long shaft" has been reported to measure 23" (despite the the company's specified 20"), thus only marginally shorter than others "extra long shaft" (such as Yamaha's).

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clayC
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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 18:01:04

I have an opportunity to buy a Merc 4 cycle long shaft electric start at about half the price of any XL shaft i can find. so if I dont hear any real negitive feed back from thoes who know (that being you all)I will own a Merc next week.

thanks again. I hope you all dont tire of my ouestions (and my poor spelling). This Forum is Wonderfull!

Clay

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 18:32:58

I have an opportunity to buy a Merc 4 cycle long shaft electric start at about half the price of any XL shaft i can find. - Clay

Hi Clay,

I don't know anything about the 4-stroke Mercury, but be sure you find out how much it weighs before you buy it. Many of our members have upgraded to 4-stroke outboards, but they've also had to replace their motor mounts because the 4-strokes are usually much heavier than 2-strokes.

If you find out the weight of the Mercury, let us know what type of motor mount you've got ... someone on the Forum is bound to know whether or not they're compatible.

'Just a thought before you spend your hard-earned money!

BTW, don't worry that we'll tire of your questions ... we've ALL got questions ... aside from the occasional friendly "jabs" at each other, that's the whole point of the Forum.

Edited by - on

clayC
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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 20:16:09

my motor mount is the kind has a spring loaded lift, and can be lowered to two down positions. I will find out about the weight

Clay

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 20:33:39

... my motor mount is the kind has a spring loaded lift, and can be lowered to two down positions. - Clay

Hi Clay,

Most motor mounts are built that way ... they've got springs, and they have one or more positions for locking the outboard into place. However, even though they work the same way, some are only strong enough to handle lighter, 2-stroke engines. Since 4-stroke engines are considerably heavier, they require a "beefier" mount.

The motor mount on my boat is too lightweight for a 4-stroke, and it also isn't recommended for saltwater use. I have a feeling that C-25s that were sold by "inland" dealers came with this mount, since these boats were most likely to see only fresh water use ... that's only my guess ... maybe Bill Holcolm will read this and give us the scoop (he is a Forum member who used to be a Catalina dealer ... he sets us straight on lots of stuff).

Anyway, I would suggest we try to figure out what sort of outboard mount you've got on your boat ... then we can find out if it is strong enough to work with the Mercury 4-stroke you're looking to buy.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 21:18:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clayC
 I have an opportunity to buy a Merc 4 cycle long shaft electric start at about half the price of any XL shaft i can find. so if I dont hear any real negitive feed back from thoes who know (that being you all)I will own a Merc next week.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The 4-stroke Mercs are Tohatsu engines. The 9.9 model through last year weighed up in the 120+ lb. range with a short shaft--presumably more with the long. (No extra-long option.) I don't know whether Mercury is rebranding the new, lighter Tohatsu 4-strokes this year. I'm guessing a deal that good is not for the newer model, but that's a guess.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 21:47:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 [quote]Originally posted by clayC
 
The 4-stroke Mercs are Tohatsu engines. The 9.9 model through last year weighed up in the 120+ lb. range with a short shaft--presumably more with the long. (No extra-long option.) I don't know whether Mercury is rebranding the new, lighter Tohatsu 4-strokes this year. I'm guessing a deal that good is not for the newer model, but that's a guess.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought they were Yamahas.

Heavy motor mount Garelick 70191

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clayC
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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 23:18:21

it is a 1996 model and my motor mount looks very wimpy compared to that Garelick 70191

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 23:33:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clayC
 it is a 1996 model and my motor mount looks very wimpy compared to that Garelick 70191
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Clay ... here is the motor mount on my boat ... is yours anything like this one?

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LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 23:52:47

I had a Honda 9.9 Long Shaft, which was 20" and it definitely was not enough. I sail on Lake Michigan, and when the water got choppy the motor came out. I got a XLS, which is 25", and I have no problem. I also put on a heavier duty motor mount which I believe we put on a bit lower, although not much. It's a Garelick, but not exactly like Frank's.

Buzz, the mount you have looks like it would be way too wimpy. The ones I have seen, and would greatly prefer, have two supports, similar to the one Frank's shows, rather than just the one it looks like yours has.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2004 : 23:59:54

Buzz - my old '79 Catalina 25SK (hull #1205) came to me with the identical mount. It was so badly worn from the 85# Honda 10 that had been mounted on it for 17 years that I was afraid it would snap or just fold in half everytime I turned the engine sideways to manuever the boat in the tight fairways at Folsom Lake Marina. That motor mount was one of the first things I replaced, with the big Garelick that Frank Hopper has on his boat. The only problem with the Garelick is that it's arms aren't very long, compared to the Catalina Factory OEM mount, and to get enough clearance between the powerhead and transom, to tilt the motor out of the water, I had to pull the mount off and re-install it with a 3" thick shim block of polyethylene under it. The Garelick was obviously not designed with mounting on a high-transom sailboat in mind. On a typical bass boat transom, where you would use this mount for a small emergency backup outboard, the mount is installed much higher on the transom than you could put on a Catalina 25, and the motor sits up above the transom and doesn't hit it when tilted. Catalina Direct has a new 4-spring, extra-heavy-duty mount made by Garhauer specifically for mounting heavy 4-stroke electric start 25" XLS outboards on Catalina 25's, and I will be heading over there to take a look at one as soon as I have a chance later in the week.

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clayC
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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 00:22:42

mine is very close to yours Buzz. I have got to get this thing out on the lake..........and it seems like I am going to need a better mount or a much lighter motor than the Merc I have been looking at. they are just hard to find. maybe i will call Catalina Direct tomorrow and see what they recomend.

Thanks for all of the advise
Clay

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 00:59:18

mine is very close to yours Buzz ... and it seems like I am going to need a better mount or a much lighter motor than the Merc I have been looking at. - Clay

I'm not real crazy about that mount ... it is barely adequate IMO ... I am surprised that so many of the early C-25s came with this mount. It will work with lighter 2-strokes, but I wouldn't want to use a mount like this one anywhere I might encounter a lot of chop or big seas (like in the Great Lakes or on either coast).

Clay, I feel your pain ... I know you want to get out on the water. Unless your outboard mount is really worn out like Larry's was, it would still be OK for a lighter 2-stroke. If you don't have any restrictions against using 2-strokes where you sail, it might be worth your while to look for a used 2-stroke. They are pretty simple (compared to the 4-strokes), so, if a 2-stroke has been maintained properly, it runs nearly as well as it did when new. They are also cheaper, easier to work on, and there are a lot more of them out there to choose from.

If you decide to get a heavy engine, you'll need a new mount ... they're not cheap. You'll also have to install it, and you'll have to reinforce the transom with a piece of starboard (or similar material) so that you don't get any "oil canning" (i.e. flexing in the transom). Another minor point ... adding a bunch of additional weight to one side of the transom might also make your boat list to that side ... that can usually be easily remedied by shifting items from one side of the boat to the other.

So, if your mount isn't shot, you might want to use it with a 2-stroke and get out on the water sooner ... 'just a thought.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 09:47:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 That motor mount was one of the first things I replaced, with the big Garelick that Frank Hopper has on his boat. The only problem with the Garelick is that it's arms aren't very long, compared to the Catalina Factory OEM mount, and to get enough clearance between the powerhead and transom, to tilt the motor out of the water,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not like mine... The 70190 has short arms the 70191 has long arms, my cowling is above the transom when the mount is up.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:01:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Catalina Direct has a new 4-spring, extra-heavy-duty mount made by Garhauer <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although I think it only has 2 springs, you can get it for a little less direct from Garhauer ([url="http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=52"]Garhauer Motor Mount[/url]). Some people like to support Catalina Direct and pay a little more. Others don't. Anyway, I think it's a good, reasonably priced mount in any case.

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clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:25:54

you know what when I went to that link and looked at the pic it turns out it is just like mine. Mine is a bit more weathered and beat up but thats my mount. I need to fiure out how to post pics here.

Clay

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:55:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it turns out it is just like mine<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd guess you have the original Garhauer mount. If it has one spring, that is what it is. The newer one is a bit beefer, has 2 springs and has brass bushings.

My original Garhauer mount worked fine on my lighter 2-stroke, until the spring broke. It still worked after that, but lifting the motor was a bit harder (lifting technique became more important than strength). Eventually, I got the new one.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 19:28:56

The garhauer is half the cost of the Garelick. Buy the garhauer.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 19:55:44

The bracket in Buzz's picture is a light-duty Fulton--nowhere near suitable for a heavy 4-stroke--especially the big Merc. The Garhauer from Catalina Direct (or from Garhauer) is marginal--the springs are not quite up to the task. The Garelick 71091 is probably the best choice out there--lots of travel, very strong cast aluminum U-beams, and springs for BIG engines. If the difference between that and the Garhauer is a boat unit or so, it's a very good investment. (Think about how long it's going to be there, and then figure the annual difference.)

The 4-stroke Mercs are definitely Tohatsus--check the pictures--the family resemblance is unmistakable. The specs are also identical. The old ones (thru 2003) are not very good choices even though they're a little less than Honda and Yamaha, but if the new ones are the latest, lighter Tohatsus, then they might be worthwhile.

Clay--we still haven't heard where/how you will use the engine. If for going short distances to get the sails up in protected waters, then a "long" shaft might be OK. If for cruising, where the iron genny might be needed in a heavy chop with the wind on the nose, go for every inch of length you can get--many XLs are 27-28". You'll be sorry if you don't. You can only lower the bracket attachment point so far--at some point the mounting board starts dragging in the water (really) and the powerhead is vulnerable to a following sea (or big wake). I, too, found that my old 22" Honda (on a substandard bracket) lifted its cooling intake out of the water if I left it idling when I went onto the foredeck--NOT a good thing. Under way, it wanted to cavitate at every opportunity.

I'm not saying not to get the good deal--just don't deal yourself a hand you'll regret later. You get what you pay for.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/20/2004 20:00:57

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 23:07:20

I am a pretty adventureous guy. mostly i plan to be on the lakes here in utah but if I stay with this boat it will see Catalina and most likely the Sea of Cortez. After reading all of this great advice I know three things......I need a new mount.....I need a XL shaft but mostly I need to get this boat on the water this season. so I am bidding on a 2 cycle johnson on ebay to get me by untill I can find the right motor. I think I will spend the money I have now on the best mount.......and just get on the water while the gettings good.

thank you all so much
Clay

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2004 : 23:46:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 [quote]Originally posted by lcharlot
 
Not like mine... The 70190 has short arms the 70191 has long arms, my cowling is above the transom when the mount is up. The Garelick is more expensive...Get the Garhauer...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank has transposed the model numbers - they should read "71090" and "71091" (see Garelick's web site). And he is correct, the 71091 arms are a couple of inches longer than the 71090, which is probably what I had on my old boat. Frank wasn't kidding about the prices, either...The cheapest discount price I found on the Internet for the Garelick 71091 is $249 (OUCH!). The Garhauer OB-125 is slightly less, at $180, but that's STILL almost DOUBLE what I paid for the last outboard mount I bought, in 1996. Has inflation driven prices up so much in only 8 years?!? NOTE: The Garhauer OB-125 shown oin their website looks like the old 2-spring model, not the newer 4-spring unit that Catalina Direct is selling. Also, the Garelick looks to me to be physically stronger than the Garhauer, and has a larger range of travel with 5 detents instead of only 2. I guess you get more features to justify the higher price...

Edited by - lcharlot on 07/21/2004 00:08:11

Walkabout
Deckhand

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Canada
3 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2004 : 20:48:18

Hey I am a newbie but learned a lot about the motor thing in the last 6 months. Have a catalina 25 swing keel that had not been in water for a couple of years. In pretty good shape though. Got a good deal on a Honda 9.9 xlong four-stroke at outdoors show(never used but an older model) so was delighted. Then found out I needed to buy a new motor mount because it was over 100 pounds. Appropriate Honda Motor mount was $550 Cdn. Then had to have a wedge fashioned to put on transom then mount motor mount on that ($50.00). This was to bring it out a bit from transom. We took the old one off and filled in holes and it works well. As someone else mentioned we had it most of the way down and when a body was on the bow I had no control coming out of the slip. Now we know we have to have it all the way down to avoid sticky slip situations. Also trying to rig a line to help lower and hoist the motor, as it is awkward for a lady skipper such as myself. It is heavy and the stern rail is in the way, so helps to loop a line around it for lifting but the challenge is to then twist yourself to move the lever while lifting. Hmm, has anyone worked this one out yet? Boat sails great but after reading the posts here I have a fear of the swing keel cable breaking. I guess the main thing is to know what to do in the event it happens.
Cheers

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