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Mandatory PFD regulations

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svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/12/2004 : 10:39:36

The NTSB in their bureaucratic wisdom is proposing a rule to require ALL people on recreational boats to WEAR PFD's ALL the time.

http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2004/040524.htm

http://www.ntsb.gov/academy/CourseInfo/MS701_200408.htm

Here is the guy to complain/comment too:

NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway, (202) 314-6100 hollowk@ntsb.gov

You can speak up now or forever hold you peace. If it ever becomes law it will never be repealed

Winston-Salem, NC

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 10:45:58

Well, here in the state of Indiana they do not require motorcyclist to wear helmets. If they are not going to require that, they sure as heck will not be able to require PFD on everyone in a boat.

Edited by - on

Tony Dillon
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 13:25:34

Take a look at the Coast Guard Statistics on deaths and accidents. It is interesting how few involve sailing vessels. http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2002.pdf This is the PDF file of 2002, other years are available there too. The largest number involve smaller motor boats.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 14:19:55

Isn't it ironic that in states that require mandatory PFD's, it is lawful to remove the PFD to jump over the side and go swimming, but once you return to the cockpit, you have to don a PFD?

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 19:32:01

Their own statistics indicate that in 2002, 637 deaths occurred alledgedly due to individuals not wearing PFDs. When this number is compared to the tens of millions who enjoy recreational boating their own data indicates that boating is arguably the safest of possible human endeavors. Safer than using the bathtub.

I wonder how many people die on the golf course? Maybe they should create a reg requiring golfers to wear helmets in case they slip, fall down and crack their skulls or to protect them from wayward drives that wack them in the cranium?

When I singlehand I always keep a PFD in the cockpit and in case I need to go to the foredeck for any reason, in any weather I always put it on. It's my choice, I'm a grown man. I can't escape the thought that someone is trying to make a buck on this nonsense.

I go sailing to get away from big brother, I don't need him beside me in the cockpit.

Thanks for the link, I provided my "input".

Edited by - oldsalt on 08/12/2004 19:34:56

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:48:20

I agree whole heartedly. Where I sail I am never more than 1.5 miles from shore. I know I can swim that far. As far as the stats go. For the most part it is Darwin at work. There are alway a few innocent bystanders but for the most part, it is stupidity and the odds catching up with people. This is one of the things that upsets me about America(Home of the Free). Next year it will be manditory Hat legislation to prevent skin cancer!

My 2 cents, Tom.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 02:31:44

The statistics don't lie: the VAST majority of boating fatalities are on powerboats, and 60% of those are alcohol related. Sailboat fatalities are so rare that I think you have a better chance of dying in a shark attack or lightning strike. Most of the handful of sailboat fatalities happen on race boats, usually in stormy conditions, or when the urge to "win" the race has caused the skipper to overpower the boat with sail area way beyond what the avaerage cruiser would ever carry in those conditions. The Coast Guard does make a point that none of us should ignore: 90% of ALL inshore recreational boating fatalities, regardless of circumstances or type of boat, would not have been fatalities if only the victim was wearing a PFD. Whenever I have to get up on the cabin roof or on the foredeck to do anything, I have a PFD on and the swim ladder is deployed so that I have at least a small chance of climbing back in.

Quote:
"Where I sail I am never more than 1.5 miles from shore. I know I can swim that far."

I don't think I could swim 50 yards in 52ºF water (San Francisco Bay's year-round temp), let alone a mile and a half, so for me a PFD and harness just make good sense if I am singlehanded on the Bay.

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 09:32:39

Let me say that I support wearing my seatbelt, my motorcycle helment and my PFD (when indicated) but I am vehemently opposed to the government telling what I have to do when it does not affect anyone other than myself, i.e. no one else gets hurt if I choose to not wear my PFD.

My comments to the NTSB highlighted the fact that I have to pass a test and get a liscense to drive my car, ride my bike or fly a plane, but any idiot can buy a boat and take off, just ask the widelife officers that work around the Miami boat show. If they really want to make recreational boating safer, then they should implement mandatory boater safety courses before you can register a boat.

Forcing people to wear PFDs could cause as many injuries as they are trying to prevent.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 11:05:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">states that require mandatory PFD's<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which states?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 11:18:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardG
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">states that require mandatory PFD's<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which states?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most states have some sort of mandatory PFD requirements (PWC's, skiers, children,...etc), but interestingly Hawaii doesn't have any PFD requirements.

For more information, click on this link to [url="http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/statepfd.htm"]PFD Wearing Requirements State Boating Regulations[/url].

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 11:47:43

It looks like the only "state" which requires life jackets on adult boaters (non-water skiers or PWC'ers) is American Samoa. It would be interesting to get direct opinions from boaters there on this issue.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2004 : 00:40:27

I am the captain of my vessel and it is my responsibility to determine when my crew should put on pfds.

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 14:36:23

"Thank you for your email concerning mandatory use of personal flotation devices (PFDs) by all boaters.

The issue of recreational boating safety has been on the National Transportation Safety Board's (NTSB's) Most Wanted list for several years. We have made numerous recommendations on this issue, including the recommendation that children under the age of 13, as well as all users of personal watercraft, be required to wear life jackets.

A public forum is scheduled for August 25, 2004, at the NTSB Academy in Ashburn, Virginia, to discuss mandating PFD use by all individuals on recreational boats. This forum will bring together pertinent agencies and organizations to discuss ways to improve recreational boating safety, and organizations representing all sides of the issue have been invited to attend. The formal papers presented by forum participants will be posted on this site after the conclusion of the meeting. In addition, the forum will be Webcast, and can be watched live at www.ntsb.gov <http://www.ntsb.gov/>.

The NTSB is committed to advancing recreational boating safety and appreciates your interest in this critical issue.

Thank you again for writing to express your concerns."

It doesn't appear from this that they understood my points regarding personal freedom and the limits placed on Congress by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution of the United States. I can't say that I'm surprised, either.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 15:08:17

The reply reads like a boiler plate response that is sent out to anyone who sends their opinion. I doubt anybody has even read your points let alone understand them. Too bad!!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 15:31:09

We had a similar discussion last fall at our club, after I fell in the lake. We ultimately decided that when we are working on the docks we need to wear pfd's. The water is cold at those times and the dangers are magnified when one goes for an accidental swim. That circumstance aside, I would prefer that the decision be left to me, and I will make a good sound one, and I suspect many of us would also. However, there are few, the minority that would and they are the ones who drown.

That's my 2 cents worth!

Edited by - on

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 15:42:16

I sent an email to Keith Holloway at the NTSB and received the same canned response. No one is home to answer the mail. You can watch the meeting on Webcast if you are so inclined. The link is: <http://www.ntsb.gov/>.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 15:56:28

It's all risk management. What is considered an acceptable risk.....leaving the house is dangerous, so is staying inside. Most people wear seatbelts now. It took decades to get everyone to buckle up, and to stop the kids from crawling all over the place.

Society, through it's elected officials seeks to protect people, if necessary against themselves. Lawmakers wouldn't be doing their jobs if they did not make laws. They get input from the NTSB, and the Coast Guard who pluck the drunked drownards out of the drink after they fall out of or crash their stink pot. So the lawmaker says, enough! Everyone wear their PFD! And he feels good about saving the lives of people that are too stupid to think for themselves. That the freedom of others is further reduced is considered collateral damage.

Be happy you live in a time when you are allowed to go out on the water at all. In a boat powered by wind, unable to get out of the way of weather. With mandatory safety regulations that are still affordable for most people. And if you so choose you can sail that boat almost anywhere you want, even across an ocean, by yourself if you choose. And if you screw up the government comes and bails you out.

There might come a day when that is considered an unacceptable risk, and the possible consequences an unfair burden on society, and thus you will be forced to stay on shore.

Meanwhile, the discussion gives me food for thought. Enough to wear my sospenders more and more. If they make it mandatory I'll just wear them all the time, unless I'm in the doldrums in the middle of nowhere. Then everything comes off. (Yes, everything.)

Am I guilty of letting "them" get away with it? Probably. I do support BoatUS, and I know they will fight to stop any unreasonable restrictions.

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay"
C250 # 618 Currently FOR SALE
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2004 : 20:26:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Montague
 The reply reads like a boiler plate response that is sent out to anyone who sends their opinion. I doubt anybody has even read your points let alone understand them. Too bad!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I received the same obligatory boilerplate response. They could care less about what we think; these kinds of decisions will be made by individuals who know nothing about sailing or recreational boating in general.

Although I always don my PFD when I'm singlehanding and need to leave the cockpit for any reason, I'll never let them force me to wear it when I decide it isn't necessary.

Could you imagine sailing along on a suny, balmy day and sweating our &^%#@** off?

Ultimately it will fall on special interest groups like Boats US or the manufacturers to put this nonsense to rest since the more big brother intrudes, the less attractive boating becomes and sales and industry related jobs will plummet.

I wish these guys would concentrate on mandating safer pencils or something.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2004 : 09:15:06

I sent a long note to the NTSB and also got the same automated response. the Great Lakes region, by USCG records has the most pleasure boats in the country. I believe we should be agitating for regional hearings, allowing more boaters to have a voice in this process. Government agencies will hold obscure and hard to attend, and limited hearings on a regulation they have already made up their minds on. They don't want our input, they will have a line-up of experts support their POV.

This summer I was shocked to find the USCG stopping boats for no PFD's on board saying the throwable cushions we have always taken in rowboats and canoes were now not considered. One of my neighbors was bringing his whaler down from storage and had some cushions on board but had not yet put the wearable pfd's in the seat lockers since they are stored in the dry environment of the cottage. (we all know how stinky and useless they become when left on the boat)A USCG semi-rigid patrol stopped him for a safety check and told him that the seat cushions were not acceptable. Rather than accept that he would be placing the PFD's on board when he got to his cottage, they towed him all the way back to Sault Ste. Marie, where he had to pay a fine.
I consider the tow through open water just to pay a fine much more dangerous than operating a whaler with only throwable PFDs on board.
BTW a whaler is virtually unsinkable. The kids on the USCG boat are way too young to remember the old Boston Whaler ads where the commentator takes a chainsaw to a boat in the water. cutting it in half the boat remains afloat.

BTW does any one remember after a spate of drownings in the late 50's the red cross and YMCA had an intensive program to teach everyone to swim. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh but what business does a non-swimmer have going out on a small boat?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2004 : 09:39:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John V.
 ...This summer I was shocked to find the USCG stopping boats for no PFD's on board saying the throwable cushions we have always taken in rowboats and canoes were now not considered. One of my neighbors was bringing his whaler down from storage and had some cushions on board but had not yet put the wearable pfd's in the seat lockers...A USCG semi-rigid patrol stopped him for a safety check and told him that the seat cushions were not acceptable...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From the [url="http://www.boat-ed.com/mi/handbook/pfds.htm"]The Handbook of Michigan Boating Laws[/url]...

"Michigan’s PFD law permits a vessel that is less than 16 feet long, or is a canoe or kayak, to choose to have either a wearable PFD (Type I, II, or III) or a throwable PFD (Type IV) for each person onboard."

This would mean that your friend was indeed in violation with just the seat cushions if his vessel was over 16'.

Edited by - dlucier on 08/19/2004 09:40:56

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2004 : 11:20:56

CT has a required Safe Boating Certificate, for which you must pass a test given in classes run by the Power Squadron and the Coast Guard Auxilary. Judging from behavior on the water, most people forget most of what they "learned" by the time they turn in their exams. For example, hardly anyone in my harbor recognizes that the main channel is marked by mid-channel markers, so half the boats are on the wrong side most of the time. And a few powerboats have kids sitting on the foredecks, dangling their legs over the bow, as the dad motors out into the Sound.

In the case of PFDs, there are some parallels to the seat belt laws. Before these laws, which started only with the requirement that carmakers put them in the front seats, if you or I made a mistake and hit another car, our mistake could have very possibly become a homicide, even if involuntary. After seat belts went into cars and, as free Americans, hardly anyone ever wore them, a simple mistake had the same likelihood of being a homicide. Laws requiring people to actually wear seatbelts protect ALL of us, including those who, God forbid, one day make that "little mistake" that could very possibly result in us killing some "free American". It's easy to say that person died of his own free choice, but not so easy when it's you who caused the accident that caused the death. (And don't say you don't make mistakes--we've all said otherwise right here on this forum!)

In the case of boats, each of us here has impeccable judgement, serving both our own and our crew's/passengers' safety--right? Right. But what of our teen-aged or twenty-something kids, piling into a hot ski boat and heading out for a day of thrills on the water? Does the operator of that boat exercise the same judgement? Does he even have sufficient PFDs on board, accessable to passengers? If he flips the boat or hits another boat, will he have time to instruct everyone where and how to don PFDs? That operator may be responsible, and our kids might have a share of the responsibility, but we're the ones having the funeral. (And it's not Darwinian when it's your kid.)

What of the unwary passenger on our boat who gets clonked by the boom, goes overboard--unconscious--and sinks below the surface before we can get the boat turned around? No Lifesling, and no horseshoe is going to save him. Unconcious people don't float by themselves.

Let's face it--neither seatbelts nor PFDs will be worn unless they're mandated. The question is whether there is sufficient reason to mandate them.

I suspect that a few people who suffered losses like these are driving these latest actions, "so others won't suffer the same loss." In turn, some politicians are faced with the prospect of being attacked for "voting against a bill to save lives"--you know how that game is played. I'm hopeful that BoatUS will put the proper perspective on this--they certainly have the resouces and credibility to present the statistics up against the anecdotes, and to steer the process to a reasonable solution. Seat belt laws are not unreasonable--in the end, they benefit all of us. Do we need anything like that for PFDs? Probably not--but I'm not convinced one way or the other.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2004 : 10:36:04

I wonder if we can get those who would mandate PFD's to pay for those nifty auto-inflating class V models with the built in harnesses? They are not all that uncomfortable in most cases & would be a good use for all those pork-barrel dollars. :-D

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2004 : 00:11:08

Don, My friend's whaler is probably a 16 footer. I still believe that the USCG used poor judgement towing a small boat through open water just to collect a fine.

I really don't want to have anyone or any department tell me I have to wear a lifejacket on my own boat.

Edited by - on

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