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Tiller stay

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SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/12/2004 : 11:01:21

Hi All,

Yeah, I'm a newbie to the forum. I've been lurking for a while and have enjoyed all of the banter and helpful tips. Thanks.

Here's the problem, I've gone through two Tiller Tamers in about a season, the plastic is too weak. I've found that I really need a tiller control to take up some of the strain when I'm heeling and when I need to move around while single-hand sailing (which is most of the time). I need to find something else that will work. I've seen the Tiller Stay while surfing the web, but don't know if it's strong enough for the job. Does anyone have experience with this product? Any other suggestions on taking the strain off of the tiller?

Thanks

Steve Gravel

Portsmouth, RI
C25 - 'Lady Jane'
SR/FK

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 11:17:57

Steve,
Does your boat have a centerboard? If it does, you can ease much of the weatherhelm by changing the angle of the board. Try varying degrees of up and downness until you get the least amount of tiller resistance. Also, are you overpowered for conditions? A reef in the sail not only will increase your control but can actually increase your speed and again, reduce weather helm. Finally, what are you using for a Tiller Tamer? Is it the Davis model with the wheel that tightens down to bind the line passing through it? Is it installed per the manufacturers instructions? I had one of those on my previous two boats and never had a problem. I just thought of something else...do you have a beaching or kick-up rudder? If the answer is yes - is it locked in the down position? If not that creates an incredible amount of weatherhelm.
Another hardware solution may be to attach a tiller extender and install a lockbox but really I know the Davis Tiller Tamer and it should be plenty strong enough for a 25' boat
Good Luck!
Bill

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 11:31:43

Steve,

Welcome to the forum!

I've used an appropriately sized bungee cord hooked to the hasps on both the port and starboard accesses. I put about four wraps on the tiller, and when sailing, if I need the position the tiller off-center, I simply just rotate the wraps.

This bungee technique works okay and is simple, but when singlehanding, nothing beats an autopilot. It will set you free!

Edited by - dlucier on 08/12/2004 11:32:10

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 13:21:52

Welcome Steve! I'm with Don on this one - I use a pre-measured length of bungee cord attached to the stern cleats on each side of the boat. I tie a clove hitch around the tiller and it holds perfectly. Move the tiller and the hitch "rolls" easily and holds the new position - a perfect example of the K.I.S.S. principle (and cheap!)

Derek

Edited by - on

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 16:28:52

Thanks for the input guys. Here is a little more information, I have a fin keel and a standard rudder. I haven't rigged the main for reefing yet, I usually just let it out for more control. I haven't figured out how I'm supposed to rig for reefing. I haven't tried using a Bungee. There is a lot of strain on the helm when I heeling over, will a bungee be up to the task? I did try using a 1/4" line wrapped around the tiller three times. That helped, but when I went to tack it got caught up and I couldn't push the rudder all of the way over.

I think it may not have been far enough up on the tiller. I also noticed that it was wearing some of the varnish off.

As for the Tiller Tamer, it was the Davis model. I installed it according to the instructions. I mounted it underneath the tiller so that it would be on the same plane as the cleats I installed. The first time it broke, it just exploded all on it's own. The second time I may have helped it along by kneeling on the line while frantically trying to get the motor re-started after it stalled when I was approaching the mooring!

I'll try the low tech approach again, maybe move the line farther forward. Autopilot sounds cool, but I'm only day-sailing at the moment and can't quite justify the cost if I can find a simpler way. No word on the Tiller Stay?

Thanks again,

Edited by - on

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 16:31:11

P.S. How do you get the picture of you boat into the signature?

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:46:03

Steve:

The bungee cord is my method of taming the tiller also, but it won't hold a lot of strain. But if there's a lot of strain on the tiller, then you shouldn't be leaving it anyway! Take the pressure off first by easing the mainsheet, way out if necessary. If you find yourself overpowered you can always heave-to, then reduce sail. The bungee will easily hold the tiller in a heave-to position.

Above all, take the time to learn how to reef. It will be one of the more important things you learn.

Edited by - on

cclark
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:54:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SteveG
 
I'll try the low tech approach again, maybe move the line farther forward. Autopilot sounds cool, but I'm only day-sailing at the moment and can't quite justify the cost if I can find a simpler way. No word on the Tiller Stay?

Thanks again,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Steve,
I mainly day sail (2 little crew at home

) and single hand (would-be admiral says sailboats are too slow

)
I have used the bungee as a tiller tamer for a number of years. It works good to hold the tiller amidship while hoisting the main, or pulling in fenders.
From what I am reading though, it sounds like you are trying to use this set up while under sail. I don't believe any of the afore mentioned low tech solutions are up for the task of holding the tiller while under considerable load. Not to question your physical fitness, but maybe if the tiller needs more support than you are able to produce, you might just have too much sail up. What kind of winds are you sailing in, and do you have a standard or tall rig?
On the higher tech side, I finally pulled the trigger on a tiller pilot this season. It can help with the issue at hand, and really helps when motoring up and down river from my marina to the bay.
I think you'll find most single handers that add tiller pilot say it is the single greatest upgrade they've made to their boat.
Chris

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 23:31:07

I sail in high wind a lot and my tiller tamer has always done the job. But the job is not to hold a course in 22 knots while I scamper around the deck. They work very well on a balanced helm under about 10 knots. Here is a picture from my pages that is one of a dozen or so I took while chill'n on the deck under tiller tamer.

[url="http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-07-18%2011.04.53%20-0700/Image-A2191920D8E411D8.jpg"]Balanced tiller tamer[/url]

It will not work at 20+...

[url="http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-07-18%2010.39.46%20-0700/July%2022%20021.jpg"]work'n not chill'n[/url]

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 00:39:54

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.
I may be missing something here but it sounds like your helm is way out of balance. When you say "a lot of strain" that is what I am wondering about. The only time I feel anything more than a few pounds of pressure on the tiller is when heeled about 20 deg. and I wouldn't leave the helm then at all. Is your 'strain' pulling or pushing on the tiller? If, you are pulling on the tiller to windward it is refered to as Weather helm, which is generally preferred, over pushing on the tiller to lee ward called Lee helm. In order to balance or lessen the pull of a weather helm your mast needs to lean or (rake) forward. To reduce a lee helm or pushing, lean (rake) the mast aft. I say only so you know which direction to move your mast depending on your helm strain. You should start with the mast as plumb as possible (while in the water) and then make small adjustments forward or aft to find your boats balance. Here is a link to a more indepth explaination.http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/snkhelm.html

In either case your strain should only be small or very light. As far as a strong tiller tamer goes, a friend of mine put a small jam cleat on the sides of both cockpit seats (under his legs) and attached the middle of a small length of 3/16 cord to the underside of the tiller just aft of center. When he leaves the tiller he simply grabs the cord and holding the tiller and jams it into the cleat. It holds tight and is very strong. I use the bungee method and it works well too.

I agree with Matsche, learn how to reef. It is not hard and is much better than simply easing the main. Here is link on how to rig for it http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/sdflatreef.html

To put a picture in your signature, you need to have the picture loaded somewhere on the internet. If you have your own web site that will work fine or you can use a site like http://www.shutterfly.com/home/signin_newuser.jsp. Once on the net, you simply add it's address link to your signature in your profile.

Good luck and I hope that helps.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 08/13/2004 03:24:01

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 02:07:49

Steve,
Just a little clarification on the pushing and pulling aspect. I think Mark is assuming you are sitting on the high side of the boat. Therefore if you are pushing, you are keeping the boat from turing away from you or down wind this is lee helm. If you are pulling you are trying to go off the wind-the boat wants to head up, this is weather helm.
Guys I have been sick this last week and kind of mixed

up so if anyone sees this and thinks it is reversed, thats why. But this is the general idea.

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 03:26:31

Thanks Matt, that is exactly what I was assuming. And you do have them right. Missed you at Huntington, get some rest

.

Steve if you let go of the tiller and the boat heads up into the wind, you have a weather helm. If when you let go the boat falls off and puts you side ways to the wind (can be dangerous), you have a lee helm.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 08/13/2004 03:35:19

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 08:23:40

Hi Guys,

What I have is a weather helm, and it may be a little more pronounced since I installed the roller furling. I'll have to check the mast alignment to see where it is, and balance it accordingly. I also need to work on reefing the main. Thanks for the links. I live in Rhode Island. I sail around the Narragansett bay area (think Newport) and we can get some pretty good winds in the afternoon. I've learned to like heeling, with my legs streched across the cockpit, my feet on the opposite backrest (I'm 6' 4"), and the leeward coaming almost awash. I don't intend on leaving the tiller while I'm sailing like this, I did it for almost 4 hours straight when sailing back from Providence a week ago. It would just be nice to have something to carry some of the load and put some resistance into the tiller. Even when the winds are calm and the sail is leisurly, I like it when the tiller has some resistance and all I have to do is adjust the tiller with a little pressure and it stays in place. The tiller tamer did what I needed, I just need one made of stainless, or something else like it that can do the job.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 09:21:52

Mark,
We were at Huntington. Came in 4th out of 7, we was robbed.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 11:34:26

Steve:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Autopilot sounds cool, but I'm only day-sailing at the moment and can't quite justify the cost if I can find a simpler way. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I tend to be on the thrifty side of the boatownership spectrum. Nonetheless, my tillerpilot has by a wide margin given me the most bang for the buck of any upgrade I've done to my boat, even if only used on "4 hour daysails". Sailnet used to put the Simrad basic model on sale occasionally, but their price is up a bit now. Defender seems to have a pretty good price -- [url="http://www.defender.com/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi?keywords=simrad+tp10&frames=yes&store=yes&search_request_button=Search"]Simrad TP10[/url]. Installation on a C25 only requires a deck plug and a 6" extension rod.

However, the others are correct -- you should figure out how to get the helm fairly balanced in any case. Someone at your dock knowledgable about mast tuning, sail control lines, etc. may be willing to go out with you and help you. The word on the street is that C25's have fairly balanced rigs, so getting your's more in balance should be easily feasible. Good luck.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 15:44:31

Also, a new balanced rudder relieves a huge amount of the strain.

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2004 : 19:19:20

I'll chime in on the Tiller Pilot. I put a Simrad TP20 on my boat anfd it was a breeze to install and even nicer to use. Also if you are so inclined you can ad GPS for more handfree. I did notice that I had to fine tune my rig. I ended up having an "old salt" help me out.

Edited by - on

Steven Fesler
1st Mate

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29 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 18:01:02

I'm glad you started this topic Steve. My tiller tamer (a brand new one) Flew apart just like yours. "Cheap junk" was my reaction but the Admiral says that I'm just hard on the equipment. Happy sailing!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 19:54:40

I agree with Frank--the balanced rudder makes a big difference, and might have saved those Tiller Tamers. With it, I can literally steer my boat with one finger in almost any wind, and any point of sail. I find that I usually don't even grip the tiller--I just rest my hand on it or steer with my knee. I doubt that an electonic helmsman would have any trouble.

Edited by - on

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2004 : 08:25:45

Hi All,

I went out to the boat the other morning and tightened up the forestay, it was a little too loose. I think it's been that way since I installed the roller furler this Spring. I didn't get to tune the rig, because (according to the Admiral) I had to batten down the hatches while the remnants of Charley went by. It was only a rain event up here in RI. I'll have get out there a take care of tuning the rigging the next chance I get.

So, how much does a ballanced rudder cost? Where do I get one? Will I really see a lot of difference in my steering with it? How does it react when heeling over 20-25 degrees?

I still haven't had any direct responses to the original question. Does anyone have any experience with the Tiller Stay? Does anyone have any knowlege of it's construction and endurance as compared to the Tiller Tamer? Is it any better than using 1/4" line, or bungee wrapped around the tiller 3-4 times?

I'm still thinking about the Tillerpilot, Christmas is coming and that would make a nifty present from Santa!

Oh yeah, I've got to do some cleaning, while looking at my rudder I noticed that it's getting a little scummy. I bet that adds to the problem as well.

Thanks again,

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2004 : 21:55:43

Steve, I agree with the responses concerning the strain you're experienceing on your tiller. Not having that much strain on my tiller, I use an adjustable Forespar tiller extension and lockbox. Granted this is NOT a tiller pilot, but it will lock the tiller in place.
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearch?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&keyword=tiller+extension&x=21&y=6"]Click here [/url]to see what they look like on the West Marine website.

Here's where I installed the lockbox on my 250:

Edited by - on

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