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Big Brother says no

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/16/2004 : 16:01:19

I am admittedly ignorant about this subject, but I must also be stupid. We are a drinking water reservoir for the city of Wichita. The water is purified at the plant in Wichita, our watershed is farm land with the attendant chemicals and sewage that implies. Our park is mostly a game preserve and the lake is teaming with wild life. What is so bad about human waste? Are these guys going to put holes in plumbing? Will the tags cause problems? Aren't people allowed to discharge beyond three miles from the coast? Won't these boat require repairs before they can be used as intended again? Does this seem extreme? Am I a moron?

 The Kansas Department of Wildlife & Parks law enforcement division will be conducting MSD inspections on all vessels equipped with MSD devices at Cheney Lake on August 22nd from 12:00 a.m. To 5:00 p.m. Officers will be located at the marina and Yacht Club to assist you, the boat owner. All vessels with MSD devices must be tagged to prevent the discharge of raw sewage into the water. Our goals are to: 1) Provide compliance of existing laws, 2) To promote a safe and healthy water environment for recreational use in Kansas. To facilitate the inspection of your vessel there are some preparations that the vessel owner is responsible for completing, or having done. The installation of the metal tag does require that a pre-drilled hole of at least 3/8” diameter exist in the handle of the “Y-valve of the MSD system. This will allow the officer to inspect the valve for proper positioning and then place the metal non-releasing tag through the valve and existing plumbing. Knowing where your MSD value is located will also assist in completing the inspection in a timely manner. We are confident that all vessel owners will be responsible and respond to this process to insure the quality of Kansas’s waters for Kansans.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 08/16/2004 16:08:50

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 16:46:48

It sounds like the local authorities are simply just starting to enforce an existing law which forbids the discharge of sewage from boats into your lake.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Are these guys going to put holes in plumbing? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The plumbing systems on C25's seems to differ from boat to boat. It sounds like the required "predrilled 3/8" hole in the handle of the Y-valve" is focused on a typical system which allows discharge from the toilet to go, depending how the Y-valve is set, either to the holding tank or straight overboard via a thru-hull. The hole is in the "handle" of the Y-valve, and not any tubes of the plumbing, thus the metal tag makes sure the Y-valve is set always so that effluent from the toilet goes only to the holding tank. To the extent you want to sell your boat or take it 3 miles offshore for legal dumping, I'm pretty sure bolt cutters would do quick work of the metal tag, bringing your system back to its original condition.

While local authorities don't reuqire a tag around here, it does not seem like an uncommon procedure in many different parts of the country. The Harbor Patrol folks at Avalon Harbor take a different approach -- they put a bunch of blue dye in your toilet...if they find blue water coming from under your boat, you can expect a large fine and your ability to enter the harbor thereafter is restricted.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The water is purified at the plant in Wichita, our watershed is farm land with the attendant chemicals and sewage that implies. Our park is mostly a game preserve and the lake is teaming with wild life. What is so bad about human waste? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While those may be important considerations to you, I don't think they are relevant. What counts is that a law exists and they now seem to be intent on enforcing it on your lake, thus your current situation has more to do with business concerns and very complicated politics at many levels (local, state and national) than anything else.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 16:58:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...What is so bad about human waste?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hepatitis, diarrhea, Cholera, Typhoid,...

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 17:04:07

Those of us who occasionally jump into the water to scrub the bottom and keel would rather not have to fend off "floaters" flushed into the marina waters by people who don't want to bother walking 100 yards to the restrooms. Also, at our marina, both adults and children often swim around the docks to keep cool.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 19:22:30

Don and Steve are on point. Contact with human waste is a bad idea for the same reason that eating human flesh is... Most other animal flesh and waste are comparatively benign to humans. (I knew you'd like the analogy...)

Now let's get right to the issue: Frank--are you leaving that Y valve open to the drinking water? Shame, shame, shame.

And Steve: Are you CRAZY??

BTW, as I recall, if you even have a Y valve in Canadian waters, you're in BIG TROUBLE. (Do I recall wrongly?)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/16/2004 19:30:15

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 20:34:09

I have a pee only porta potty and do it so seldom that it seems to be a seasonal issue to empty it. This is Y-valve inspection is a non issue for me. I just find it hard to believe that human waste is so different from the 1000 lbs of fish, reptile, and bird waste that gets let in our lake every day.
I would be shocked if anyone had their y valve set to discharge. I am sure people have them set to the holding tank while using the head. AND it is inconceivable to me that anyone would dump their holding tank anywhere but as far away from the general use area of the lake as possible.
I sure envy people who want to swim at their docks. This is a picture of my XLS Johnson, There is another skeg and a white prop in that water but all you can see is reflection. We can only see 1 to 2 inches into our water. This is because we are a mud lake on a prairie. We usually scrub our hulls out in the lake.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 20:44:04

The way I read it, they do intend to puncture your discharge hose when they install the tag through the valve "and existing plumbing".

Looks like overkill to me since they may have the legal right to seal your valve to prove the head discharges only to the holding tank; but they have no business damaging your vessel.

Also, what happens if you trailor to a venue that allows overboard discharge? I regularly sail quite a few miles offshore and that's when I use my Y valve to redirect the "matter".

Edited by - oldsalt on 08/16/2004 20:45:44

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 22:04:57

Fresh water, let me qualify that, truly fresh water is becoming scarce. Sailing in the north channel where there are regulations regarding discharge of human waste. Canadian rules forbid the Y valve. All waste must be held in a holding tank and pumped only at designated pumpout stations. (there are many, every marina has one) These regulations are becoming the norm throughout the great lakes. While sailing in the waters surrounding Isle Royal in lake superior we were not allowed to discharge anything into the lake. Even our grey water had to be either kept in a holding tank or transported ashore and walked 100 feet inland where it may be dumped and allowed to perk from there.
While in the Rock harbor marina a power boat tied near us was discharging water from a lav sink. Park rangers were there to "discuss" park regulations with the owner.

as for peeing in Lake Superior, this summer the surface temp was 39 degrees and had I gone swimming and had to pee, I doubt if I could.
I believe we should do our best to take care of our fresh water resources. I know that in many midwestern lakes there is an onslaught of fertilizer, animal runoff, and oil residue from road runoff, but as a sailing community we should lead the way to keep the resource we enjoy as clean as possible.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 22:12:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 The way I read it, they do intend to puncture your discharge hose when they install the tag through the valve "and existing plumbing".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The way I read it, they want a hole in the metal handle of the Y valve so they can strap it to something else in a way that prevents it from being pushed to the overboard position, and then check the strap at any time to see it hasn't been removed. No holes in the hose--that could sink the boat, which WOULD be overkill! When they put the seal on, Frank should ask about the procedure for removing it for trips on the Pacific, and replacing it upon return to Kansas.

BTW, in many places, homes around a lake like that have been forced to disconnect their speptic systems and connect to new sewers, at considerable cost. Boaters do themselves no favors by leaving even the impression that they're "dumping" in the lake.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/16/2004 22:15:18

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2004 : 22:14:41

This conversation is funny to me. I grew up swimming in floaters, back in the old country. Courtesy was to warn the people on the side of the boat where the discharge was of the impending "launch"

.

But, we know better now. Yes, human waste contains much more evil organisms than cow pie. Everyone discharging in a lake would increase harmful bacteria levels measurably.

Finally, it is the law. Frank, the 3 mile rule does not apply to inland lakes, only to ocean shores. Even the Chesapeake, and I believe the Long Island sound do not allow overboard discharge.

Most Y valves have a hole in the handle for just this purpouse. I doubt though that there will be many on your lake. Inland vessels that even have a holding tank generally do not have a provision for overboard discharge.

Couldn't help but giggle though:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Officers will be located at the marina and Yacht Club to assist you, the boat owner.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm from the government and I'm here to help......

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay"
C250 # 618 Currently FOR SALE
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - Oscar on 08/16/2004 22:18:30

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2004 : 22:05:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Officers will be located at the marina and Yacht Club to assist you...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Discharging their duties...
Hey, Oscar started it!

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2004 : 22:17:43

That's it.....go see the Head master Bubba.....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay"
C250 # 618 Currently FOR SALE
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

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