Association Forum - Edson steering upgrade

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Edson steering upgrade

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

chris wray
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/26/2004 : 12:50:45

Hello all,
I am going to haul out boat for multiple maint. tasks one of which might be upgrading the edson morse cable steering mechanism. (I can feel Mr. Stewart getting his saleman's blood up and I am considering your package by the way Aryln). But would also like to know if there is a push and pull (from both sides) morse cable type of upgrade. Perhaps from a larger boat?
I would appreciate any in put. Thank you.
Chris Wray

Edited by - on

DougA
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2004 : 21:28:52

Chris
Have a look at http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech250/pullpull.html That was my project 2 years ago. It is in the tech tip section of the national site. It is stock from Edson.

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2004 : 18:42:02

Chris,
I bought Doug's old push-pull system and duplicated it on the port side of the steering system.I now have a pull-pull system that works like a charm. I have been using it for 2 years now,mostly in racing so it gets pretty well used.
Jack, 2nd Wind #106

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2004 : 17:06:20

Chris... I chuckled when reading the "salesmanship blood" words. Those who haven't wrestled the wheel and a second generation rudder in tough conditions won't fully understand the passions that birthed the words.

It's been years ago now, early on in this forum in discussions with Bill Holcomb as I described the efforts to "tame the beast" and a beast it was.

Looking back at the understanding that came... that the "beast" was hidden behind several layers of cause, challenging a "normal" effort of fingering a singular issue.

When Catalina and Edson realized they had a problem they halted offering the wheel until solutions were effected. Catalina designed a balanced rudder and Edson designed the pull/pull linkage and together the problems of the orginal design were overcome.

The original Edson linkage was in my opinion over engineered in application but underdesigned. The hardware was top quality and robust and infact was so robust that the push pull cable was stiff and had a lot of drag. The pickoff for the cable using the idler chain suffered a lot of play.

The design shortcoming was the wheel to rudder ratio. The wheel is simply a lever and the ratio dictates the lever effect, and the chosen engineering plan limited this lever ratio to one wholly inadequate to the efforts required of the rudder.

Their fix was to reduce the leverage requirements of the rudder and reduce drag whereas my approach was to eliminate drag and greatly increase the wheel lever. They saw the beaching rudder as expendable whereas I was unwilling to give it up. Of course there were some other lesser issues, I wanted to avoid the expensive Edson cables and a system more friendly to the wheelpilot.

I admit that I've never been at the helm of another 250 so I can't offer comparisons. All I can say is that significantly changing the steering leverage ratio has totally changed the helm for the better. It allows use of the 2nd generation beaching rudder or any rudder desired with no helm torque issues. An example of this was offerd to me by one who installed the kit, who shared that even while backing up, there was load on the wheel.

Again, even though I haven't helmed the upgraded system, I have followed the "words" and so far there have been few critical of the pull/pull and 3rd rudder combo. One owner of the new system, converted to open wires because of "excess drag and play". Another owner lamented excess loads bending the aft cable frame causing serious play in the system which required a wooden spreader installed in the frame.

The question for pull/pull double cable owners is, has any one experienced any problems? Have there been any failures? Are there still any play or drag issues? Do any torque issues remain? Are there any steering torque problems while backing up? Do those using a wheelpilot experience any problems?

Chris, while I am proud of the oepn wire design, I did it to meet the needs of staying with the 2nd generation beaching rudder. Fortunately, the design hit the mark and has exceeded my and others expectations. My "sales words" were to sell a concept that corrected the design shortcoming of the Edson system.

I continue to think that Catalina and Edson got it wrong when they didn't correct the steering ratio problem and designed a system that forced a change away from a beaching rudder, especially on a water ballast boat.

Last, the open cable design is in my opinion superior to the Edson cable system. I think the proof of this is simple. Flexible cables are only used on smaller boats with wheel steering. Larger sailboats use open cables. I think the deal is simple. Edson likely felt that a generic small boat steering system needed to use flex cables so as to be generic to several small boat designs because of routing struggles of open cables within the confines of small designs, each being different. The trade here is good marketing for Edson but a less than optimum system for the discriminating helmsperson.

I've said all, with no desire to sell kits... I've made the plans and design open for others to build themselves... I've kitted it only because I was asked to because of the machining involved.

Edited by - on

chris wray
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2004 : 14:34:02

Arlyn,
To be sure I have appreciated, for a long time, all of your contributions to the web site. Part of what I do for a living is selling and I must say that when there is stated, by another, a need for that which I have I get "me salesman's blood up". I'm still not quite sure which tack I should take in this situation. I'll confir with the fellows at the boat yard and see what they think.
Regards,
Chris Wray

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2004 : 17:22:01

I have a 2000 Cat 250 WK. I bought it used. It has a factory/dealer installed Edson steering wheel. I presume I have the 2nd gen rudder. Backing out of slip poses no problem and steering seems to be quite responsive. I have a Nissan 9.8 hp with extra-long shaft(?). I was told that I have Arlyn's soft link set up. So far I have not had any trouble with it at all but then I have not been able to sail as much as planned. I have not sailed it in heavy weather but have had enough wind to make it interesting. How do I know what cable hook up I have? Also, is it possible to have a 12v outlet installed on the pedestal, or is that feasible? How does one get an electrical supply to the top of the pedestal guard? Just don't want to mess up my beautiful boat.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 09:26:16

Joseph, I'm thinking a DC outlet would be easier to install over at the quarter panel rather than on the pedestal as a bracket of some sort would need added to the guard but that is certainly doable. A wire can be routed into the guard at the bottom and an exit hole near the point of use on the guard.

The revision by Edson for the steering cables can be easily identified. Examine the steering cables coming out of the pedestal, if there are two, then the cables are the newer designed pull/pull. The original design used one heavier cable.

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 18:37:58

Thanks, Arlyn, for your usual, concise, logical solutions. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again!

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.