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converting to a holding tank

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/30/2004 : 22:14:58

I'm in search of the right C25. I've seen a couple that I like but they have porta-potties. What is involved with installing a holding tank and the associated head?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 22:24:58

IMHO a marine head subtracts at least a grand from a boats value. A porta-potty is versatile, a marine head is limiting. Where do you plan to pump out?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 22:40:19

I expect to pump out at Marinas and campsites with proper facilities. When I find a boat I like, the first question from the Ms, is what kind of head. Porta-Potties get a

.
I absolutely must have the best commode arrangements available for this kind of boat. I would be man over board if Ms found out that someone else in the fleet had better seating arrangements.
If a porta-potti is the best thing to do, that's what I'll do. But I am led to believe, that a holding tank with a flush mechanism is both desireable and eco-friendly. It is understood that we are using the head as a liquid receptacle and that any solid deposits would be on an emergency basis only.
I've seen the Catalina Line Drawings and parts pages - can C25s factory shipped with Porta-Pottis be converted to holding tank & appropriate head?

Edited by - stampeder on 08/31/2004 00:51:14

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 00:48:25

I used to prefer a porta potti, but that was before I had a marine head. I'd have to respectfully disagree with our friend from Pitcairn (Mr. Christian?): I'd say a port potti lowers the value of the boat, at least for me. I would definitely want a marine head these days, but they both have their pros and cons.
Installing a marine head would involve a tank under the port settee, vent & drain hoses, and the head itself. Get the tank from CD and everything else comes from Worst Marine. Shouldn’t be too hard, as long as you don’t mind wacking holes on you boat.

Edited by - on

chancewane
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 01:05:39

I guess that I'm out $1200. since I had to replace the head and tank, and hoses (per Hopper's calcs), but;

1. My Admiral placed a high priority on a head vs. a porta potty when we were looking at boats (not to mention the two teenage female mates).

2. There's no way they would be caught dead in the cockpit using a porta potty, no matter how dark it is or how isolated the mooring is!

Don't forget the through hull would have to be put in during a retrofit.

chance

PS Frank, where does the TP go, on the winch handle?

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 01:41:41

While I doubt that having a portapotty raises the monetary value of the boat, I have come to appreciate the one on "Even Chance." When I got the boat, I lived and sailed nowhere near a marina with pumpout facilities. But even now that I dock in a full service marina, it seems lots easier and cheaper to haul the portapotty tank by its built in handle to the bathroom in the marina, empty it in the toilet, and flush. What's ecologically worse about that?

I am constantly reading horror stories about malfunctioning heads with valves that need to be rebuilt; of holding tanks that need to be replumbed; of hoses that leak and need replacement. Maybe I spent too many years in Boy Scouts using considerably less sophisticated "sanitary" facilities, but the portapotty seems pretty sensible to me.

And Chancewane, if your portapotty is in the cockpit, then either your potty is too far aft or your tiller too far forward.

Brooke

Edited by - on

gmcdent
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 06:32:07

I had the same situation in June. Get an experienced person to place the two thru hulls. NO leaks that way. The rest of the job is connecting hoses (double clamp all) A 9 gallon tank worked best under the port sette. A great tip I got was to heat the sanitary hoses in hot water---that way they flex better and go onto the male fittings better---be sure to have clamps on first and ready to tighten. If you forget the clamp it is a pain to have to open it completely and then put it on. Also I feel it is best to tighten the clamps while the hose is still somewhat soft. It probably gives a better seal.

I used a two burner Coleman stove and a turkey roasting pan (You need this size)half filled with water. Set it up nout in the cockpit and be prepared for questions at the dock such as "what's cooking".

Good luck. I agree and so did Mrs. --why ruin a day sailing by having to empty a porta potti.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 08:06:36

I like our set up. I used a PH II Raritain head, a 7 gallon tank from Ronco plastics (under the vee berth starboard aft corner), took the deck pumpout through next to the water fill, and ran a self discharge line back to the regular bilge pump with a Y-valve in the cocpit locker( there are a lot of places where pumpout? still brings a blank stare). This takes up almost no room that you might normally use and with a couple of screw in deck plates all connections are ascessable. Only one thru hull for the head this way, intake only. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 08/31/2004 08:14:41

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 09:22:03

I think the discussion about the pottie in the cockpit was relative to a C-22 or other boat with it stored under the V-berth inset. At least it offers an option a C-22 wouldn't have with a fixed head in the middle of the V... (Picture that.)

Dave--I hope you wash down the transom somehow after your "pump out". I also hope you have a good check valve on the bilge pump intake...

I'm with the portable contingent--neither option is like a 1.5 gallon-per-flush toilet--if your Admiral thinks it is, then there's a big disappointment coming. My 5-gallon pottie gets a thorough cleaning ashore after every trip where its used, and then is stored in the boat completely dry and sanitary. I guess I don't quite get the big difference between a holding tank in the cabin and one in the head--except that the one in the cabin can't be cleaned and has a variety of hose joints between itself, the throne, and the deck pump-out. And from what I've smelled, flushing with salt water really dials up the odors. But I guess this an issue that logic and reason won't overcome.

BTW, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that any Y valve arrangement is illegal in Canada. No?

Just one caution with the pottie for anyone who decides on it: Crack the sliding valve slightly to release any gas pressure in the tank before putting anything in the bowl! My story about that is second-hand, fortunately!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/31/2004 10:01:14

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 09:26:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 IMHO a marine head subtracts at least a grand from a boats value. A porta-potty is versatile, a marine head is limiting. Where do you plan to pump out?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A $1,000 price difference??? A marine head is more limiting??? If this is the case, then someone needs to tell boat manufacturers to stop installing fixed heads in their boats. Up here in Michigan, people prefer a fixed head.

I've had both a porta-potty and now a marine head and, for me, the porta-potty was by far more limiting. My marina has a self service pumpout which takes all of 1 minute to empty my holding tank, but I can also go to just about any gas station on the water and get a free pumpout with a fill up, which is done by the attendant.

My old porta-potty, with its relatively limited capacity, required that I remove it and transport it home for emptying (marina forbids doing so in their bathrooms) then lug it back to the boat.

The porta-potty vs fixed head issue is usually dependent on the facilities (pumpout) available.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 09:35:21

My own feeling is that some time in the future, assuming people are still here,people will look back on the last two centuries and ask " how did they manage to piss away all that petroleum and why in hell did they invent a system that contaminates eight or more lbs of water to carry off a few ounces of excrement". Dave

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 10:04:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...And from what I've smelled, flushing with salt water really dials up the odors...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To eliminate "low tide" odors from using lake water to flush with, behind the head I keep a gallon jug with premixed water/deodorant and when I need some water, I just pour it in. Doing this has cut down on odors and the need to open and close the water intake valve every time the head is used.

This has also made it easier for others since they no longer have to open the intake valve and fill the bowl, switch the head to flush and pump, then switch to pump dry, and finally close the intake valve. Without the need to flip switches and open/close valves, its now simply...do business and flush.

Edited by - dlucier on 08/31/2004 10:17:01

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 11:13:04

I bought a Thetford 800 series electric flush porta potty that is clean, comfortable, (I weigh 300 lbs), odorless, and far more sanitary because it gets CLEAN every time I empty it. We have two pump out stations at our club and it looks like a hassle to me. I have never participated in doing the deed however, so maybe motoring over to a dock and sticking a nozzle in a deck is easier than it sounds. But, never haveing a really clean holding tank, giving up the space, adding systemic complexity for Murphy to feed on, adding maintenance issues on a boat that is crowded with four people on board is a minus to me. At 28ft and above I would figure the hassle of a marine head and an inboard just come with the territory, until then, give me the functionality of a porta-potty and an OB.

edit:
I expect to pump out at Marinas and campsites with proper facilities. When I find a boat I like, the first question from the Ms, is what kind of head. Porta-Potties get a

Has she gone and looked at any of the boats? A 20 year old head is not a pretty thing. A brand new never been used, chosen by her, porta-potty is lovely in comparison. And easier to use.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 08/31/2004 11:20:31

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:06:56

We're going to have to address the potty issue straight away. I'm leaning to the advanced porta-potti. Will have to be a new one. I think the seller will have to remove and dispose of the existing commode as a condition of sale.
I appreciate the heads up regarding Canadian regs - I will be attending the next Canadian power and Sail squadron meeting (I'm a lapsed member) and I'll ask some questions. such as Excuse me sailor, do you sit when you pee?
The last sailboat I was on that had a head, had a sign that requested all gentlemen please sit to pee. There was another sign on the inside of the door that was eye level while the occupant was seated, it said "no large vessels down this waterway"

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:11:29

Wow -- this is more controversial the r v. w!

I really don't think the "market" as a whole puts much value either way on what type of head a C25 has, however particular individuals certainly do.

With a porta-potty, you have to carry it somewhere and dump it regularly -- for me that's repulsive and a deal breaker at any price.

My system came with a similar system as Dave L's (although different models, capacities and locations). It works well for me because I simply flip the y-valve and pump out the tank, completely unreliant on any facilities whatsoever, other than being 3+ miles offshore. The sea does a great job of rinsing off the transom and any unpumped "material" remaining behind the bilge pump simply flows back into the holding tank. If I can't go 3+ miles offshore, I have the option of pumping out through the deck. While I may be destroying my plumbing (but nothing has broke so far), I contain odors by occasionally flushing a small splash of household ammonia into the tank. The commercial blue stuff never worked sufficiently for me. I also regularly refresh the seawater between the intake thru-hole and the head, removing the stinky, dead micro-seacritters in there.

As for installing a marine head system, it won't be cheap and the market probably won't repay you back on resale. There are lots of C25's with already installed systems. If that's what you really want, I'd keep looking.

I'd also check out the pumpout facilities locally first. I really don't know, but I'd guess that Canada generally has more and better facilities at the places you plan to go. Talk with local boat owners for their ideas. As Dave B. suggested, also check out the local regulations on equipment (e.g. y-valve's that allow pumping straight overboard).

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 12:29:35

I'm with the porta-potties:

1. There are no pumpout facilities on our lake. (That I know of.
There might be one but it would be 8 miles south of my dock.)

2. I carry enough poop on my boat, I don't want to add to it with a
holding tank when I can carry the porta-potti off each time and
dump it and clean it after each sail. (The camp grounds around the
lake have dumping facilities for RV's that work fine.)

3. I don't know about the rest of you but at my age I can't pick and
choose when I get the "calling" so I need something thats able to
take my deposites whenever the urge hits. (This holds true for my
5 year old son also. I've heard "Dad I gotta poop!" too many times
3 hours away from the dock to be without some type of receptical
to hold said poop.

I can see the need for a holding tank if you are on a weeks trip out away from any facilities but not for an inland lake. IMHO

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 13:19:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I bought a Thetford 800 series electric flush porta potty that is clean, comfortable, (I weigh 300 lbs), odorless, and far more sanitary because it gets CLEAN every time I empty it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,

Do you actually CLEAN the porta-potty's holding tank EVERY time you empty it or are you simply pouring out the contents?

If you are just pouring out the contents without scrubbing the interior of the tank, then it is no different than when I pumpout my holding tank. Occasionally, after pumping out my tank, I will take a hose and put a few gallons of water in the tank thru the deck fitting, then pump it out again to give it an extra rinsing.

Question Frank, did you have issues with a fixed head system in a previous boat?

Edited by - dlucier on 08/31/2004 14:10:52

Eric Dove
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 13:36:14

I've owned a boat with a Porta Potti and now own one with the marine head and all its required plumbing. I'm a "yea" for the marine head. I'm with the other sailor on this post who was repulsed by the notion of emptying the Porta Potty, particularly after every use. I'm not a queasy type person or anything, but I want my sailing experiences to be fun, not grody. That said, there are definitely outside factors which play into it though.

1) My boat is in a slip...removing the Porta Potty requires a long walk to anywhere I could dump it
2) We have a marina with pump out facilities right around the bend. Takes only a minute, it's easy and it's completely clean.
3) I use the standard blue goo. I pump out only every 3 weeks or so. I don't use the head a ton, but it's there when someone needs it and I've never had any odors when I use the right about of bluee stuff.
4) I personally find them a bit more stable and comfortable than Porta-Potties.
5) Have not yet had any problems with any of the plumbing.

Also, I think Canada only requires that you have the appropriate deck pump out plumbing....I don't think having the Y-valve is illegal. Don't know for sure though.

I'd consider that and whether or not you'll have convenient pump-out facilities. If you do, I think it's much less hassle to have the marine head.

Eric Dove on Adelaide
'83 SK TR MH

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 14:24:29

The C25 is a simple boat. Nothing is more simple than a Porti-pottie. Mine (from Sears) is really well designed. Emptying it is effortless and not messy. I do so when 3 miles out in the ocean or in the marina bathroom. Its not smelly. I put the blue stuff in after each day, but I only bother emptying it when its getting full, smelly, or when we are going to be having guests on board.

I really like no through-hulls, no tank, no pump, no valves, nothing to leak, nothing to maintain, nothing to break. Its one less thing to worry about.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 14:52:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I bought a Thetford 800 series electric flush porta potty that is clean, comfortable, (I weigh 300 lbs), odorless, and far more sanitary because it gets CLEAN every time I empty it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,

Do you actually CLEAN the porta-potty's holding tank EVERY time you empty it or are you simply pouring out the contents?

If you are just pouring out the contents without scrubbing the interior of the tank, then it is no different than when I pumpout my holding tank. Occasionally, after pumping out my tank, I will take a hose and put a few gallons of water in the tank thru the deck fitting, then pump it out again to give it an extra rinsing.

Question Frank, did you have issues with a fixed head system in a previous boat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I rinse it out 3 or 4 times, until it empties clean and looks clean inside.
I have never had any experience with marine heads other than using them and smelling them on other people's boats. Another point that I am surprised Milby hasn't mentioned is that Porta-pottys stay on the dock for racing. Even if you are required to leave it on for racing and empty porta-potty weighs 4 lbs. Also you never trailer with an extra "load".

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 16:46:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...I have never had any experience with marine heads other than using them and smelling them on other people's boats...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Porta-potty's can smell too if not properly maintained!

When I had a porta-potty, I too, used to think that nothing could be easier, but all that changed when I got a boat with a marine head.

Frank, you sure have a lot of negative things to say about marine heads for someone who has never owned one!

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 16:57:24

My preference is a marine head. If there were no pump-out facilities close by, then I'd have to prefer a porta-potty. It's just a matter of what works best given the situation.

What I'd really like to have (better than a marine head or a porta-potti) http://www.airheadtoilet.com/Air_Headx.html

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 17:50:09

John - awesome find.My boat budget just went up $850.

Looking at the dimensions, do you think it will fit okay?
This has the potential to make me popular.

Edited by - stampeder on 08/31/2004 17:53:57

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 20:01:19

The marine head vs porta potti issue depends on a number of things. Primarily, IMHO, the ease and expense associated with emptying the marine head. Last year I sold a 43' houseboat in which (several years earlier) I got rid of the marine head in favor of the largest porta potti I could find. At my marina, on my lake (everybody's circumstances are different), it was more convenient and cheaper (read free) to dump a porta potti than motor up to the marina dock and pay $10 for every pumpout.

Edited by - on

chancewane
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 20:05:59

Brooke,
RE:"And Chancewane, if your portapotty is in the cockpit, then either your potty is too far aft or your tiller too far forward.

I was referring to Frank's comment that that's where he uses his; I have a marine head and holding tank that I replaced...

Chance

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 20:49:30

Um. . . .where does Frank say his portapotty is in the cockpit? It was pretty obvious you had a marine head, and I really didn't think it was in the cockpit, despite the syntax of your post.

Brooke

Edited by - on

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