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converting to a holding tank

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 21:33:56

Actually, there was a post in this thread about the porta-potty being put out in the cockpit at night, but it seems to have gone AWOL.

Steve

Edited by - on

joe keith
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 22:30:07

Another thing to think about here is how much actual waste is stored by each system. With the porta potty almost all the material being held is waste (only a smal amount of flush water is needed). With a real head how much is waste plus flushing water. So for a small holding tank that is practical on a C25 how many times can one use the head before pumping compared to the porta potty?

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 22:38:44

Thanks, Steve. That would explain a lot.

Brooke

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 00:04:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by joe keith
 Another thing to think about here is how much actual waste is stored by each system. With the porta potty almost all the material being held is waste (only a small amount of flush water is needed). With a real head how much is waste plus flushing water.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

About the same as with a porta-potty.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by joe keith
 So for a small holding tank that is practical on a C25 how many times can one use the head before pumping compared to the porta potty?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With a 14 gallon holding tank, you can go quite a bit before pumping out...it can hold a lot of sh....!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:42:16

Don,
We are all skippers; therefore we all have the propensity to make decisions based on what information we have. In my extremely limited exposure to marine heads I have , as I noted, relegated them to a complexity and burden better left to larger boats. The fact that others see it another way only supports my premise that we are all skippers. I try really hard not to sound like I and telling someone they are wrong when I disagree with them. I do not think other people are wrong, and more often than not I ultimately come around to the opinions of those who I disagree with at first. Meaning I am wrong more than I am right. (Occasionally people come around to my way of thinking!)

The porta-potty in the cockpit comment is on another thread that speaks to what it is like to use a porta-potty on a smaller boat like a 22. I state that I like heads under the V-Berth because the interior of those boats have the V-Berth in the salon area and therefore have more seating than some larger boats. In the slip we used the club bathrooms and at anchor we put the potty out in the cockpit so we would not sleep over it. Using one in the cockpit is very nice.

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:59:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The porta-potty in the cockpit comment is on another thread that speaks to what it is like to use a porta-potty on a smaller boat like a 22.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Frank, you're right. I forgot that there's two head threads going on. I stand...er, sit, corrected.

Steve

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 09:00:09

The last three boats I have owned all arrived with porta potties and I have three of them gathering dust in the boat barn. Having installed marine heads I find that the job is not that difficult. I need a 12 gallon holding tank given the duration of my trips. Alone I can go a week without a pump. With Linda and the kids aboard it only takes about three days to fill. In the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes no discharge overboard is allowed. Pumpout facilities are many and relatively inexpensive. I guess your choice should be based on where and how you cruise. I was on board for six weeks this summer, so a P.P. would have been impractical. In the waters surrounding Isle Royal National Park, there is a zero discharge rule. Grey water must also be tanked or carried ashore. When we finish the dishes the bucket of soapy water must be taken 100 feet in from the shore and dumped so that the soil will have time to perk out all the impurities. You can imagine how comical it is to stagger through dense wilderness underbrush with the sudsy water. If you don't follow the rules the fines are steep. Lake superior water is cold and clean and for the most part drinkable.

I'm all for the marine head but if you prefer the P.P. I have several I would be glad to give away.

Edited by - on

Brent
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 09:27:06

I purchased the SaniPottie (portapotty) for my boat. It has a 5 gallon holding capacity. With the 5 gallon capacity it sits higher than a regular portapotty. When properly installed it is very stable.

This model can either be dumped in a toilet, or can be sucked out. It mates up to a standard deck fitting and internal hose assembly that can be bought from Catalina Direct for a perminant head. Then it can be pumped out at the pump station, just like a perminant head. No dragging the fool thing around.

The only drawback I can find is that you have to burp it very slowly, only takes a second or two, if it has not been used lately. It does not mention this in the instructions, but after a near disaster you will always remember. I burp it as I am going forward to open the front hatch. I tis a matter of ritual.

When it gets old and nasty, it will go in the garbage and a new one will be purchased, no big deal.

Brent

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 09:53:22

Quote: When it gets old and nasty, it will go in the garbage and a new one will be purchased

That was my reasoning for a PP and outboard (you cannot go over $2000 in repairing a 9.9 OB

). But the admiral wanted marine head and preferably Diesel, so that's what we got. You gotta keep the higher ranks and crew happy or no skipper is happy.

Question though: after our first pump-out, there is the distinct smell of, um, holding tank in the cabin. I think it's coming from the bilge so I tried to put water in it and pump it out. Anybody else got this?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 10:09:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brent
 I purchased the SaniPottie (portapotty) for my boat...The only drawback I can find is that you have to burp it very slowly,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey Brent, when burping your porta-potty, do you hold it over your shoulder rocking it gently or do you just rest it on your lap and tap the back of it? Have you ever had the occasional "wet" burp?

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Brent
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 14:06:07

Over the shoulder is preferable.

The first time we had a huge temperature swing and a couple of previous liquid deposits, it was almost a wet disaster. Live and learn

But really, once I get the thing properly plumbed to the outside with a discharge and vent (with filter) the pressure differential problem will not longer exist, no more burping!

Brent

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 16:07:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Emptying it is effortless and not messy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim:

While I understand you are quite confortable with it, I doubt you or anyone else could convince me that statement is true (or that "duty" is simple).

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 20:32:04

One of our friends is using ( for six years) a box with a toilet seat lid, a double heavy duty trash bag, and cat litter. Claims no odor and easy no splash disposal at any dumpster. The idea sounds good enough to get me to try it out. If you separated the urine as often as was practical it I think it would work well. I'm not (having lived with both) sold on either a PP or a standard marine head and holding tank. Simply not adding any water to the waste would lighten the load a lot. Thinking inside the litter box. Dave

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 20:53:25

I'm suprised there are no comments on the Airhead head. I looked at the link John provided earlier in this thread. The Admiral said that this is a MUST HAVE....hence my subsequent comment that my budget just went up $850. Conceptually it looks like a good idea, poop into a coffee filter and pee into seperate portable container all the while an electric fan not only keeps the odours at nil, it conditions the entire boat - no more musty smell on layups - but the question remains, does it work to the satisfaction of the Admiralty and to the acceptance of the Swabby, and will it fit into the space?
http://www.airheadtoilet.com/Air_Headx.html (courtesy of John Mason)

Edited by - stampeder on 09/01/2004 20:55:07

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 21:12:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 Thinking inside the litter box. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm speechless.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 21:25:00

[url="http://www.sailmiami.com/SM_Articles/upgrading_head.htm"]airhead story[/url]

[url="http://www.sun-mar.com/2002/SelfcontainedUnits.htm"]composter 2[/url]

Although their size and their price make them impractical—if not impossible—for use on most boats smaller than 40 feet, there has been so much interest in composting toilets that it wouldn’t be fair not to include them in a list marine toilets. Because composting toilets are totally complete self-contained units, they are Coast Guard Certified Type III MSDs, can be a very attractive and cost-competitive alternative to a new toilet and MSD or holding tank on a houseboat or any vessel that has a head compartment large enough to accommodate their size: typically a 19" x 23" footprints, plus an additional 25" required to pull out and remove the drawer to empty it, and it’s 29" height (retractable boarding step/footrest included). No plumbing is required, although sufficient power (12v or 115) to continuously run the 3.4 watt fan and evaporating plate in the evaporating chamber must be available . The compost is sanitary, identical in every way to bagged fertilizer available at garden supply stores. List prices average $1200.

[url="http://www.mtlion.com/sunmar/acdc.htm"]composter again[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2004 : 21:53:50

The problem for me with the Air Head is the 120 mA current. If I understand the info thats 24/7 forever once you use the system. I also don't think it will fit in a Cat 25. Urine dispoal would be a problem too. The sad part of all this mess is that the governments that are mandating all this are not making any perceivable progress in cleaning up the effluent from towns and cities. As I posted earlier the fundamental mistake was made back when Mr. Crapper came up with the toilet and associated water born disposal system. Dave

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2004 : 14:23:32

Frank, you're running on old info. I've been following the composting toilet development ever since I started thinking about owning a sailboat (OK, way too much time on my hands, or too much time thinking about the details

).

Up until the "Airhead", the info you have is pretty much correct. The "Airhead" compacts things a bit more and no evaporator plate, just a 120mA fan that could be powered with a small solar panel.

It looks like it needs about 19 1/4" width, 11 1/2" mounting depth (overall depth including the pee container is about 18 1/2"), 19 1/4" height. The overall depth might make getting to the V berth a bit tighter.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2004 : 23:01:46

The trick to an odorless marine head installation is to use discharge hoses with extra thick,impermeable walls rather than the cheap, thin walled corregated junk they sell in the marine stores. (Also, it pays to see that the vacuum breaker check valve at the top of your vented loop isn't leaking "matter" along with air. If yours is "crusty" replace it.) My discharge hose was given to me by a friend in the petroleum supply industry, is double walled and strengthened by wire mesh between the walls. There is absolutely no odor coming from my holding tank or marine head; none whatsoever. I installed a 6 inch PVC beckson through deck fitting in my holding tank which allows me to thoroughly flush it out and clean it after a pumpout.

My marina has a well maintained pumpout station and absolutely forbids taking porta potties to the restrooms, which they keep immaculate, for dumping the "matter" there. Their policy is strict, do it, get caught once, and you're out of the marina for good.

I can't see the usefullnes of a porta potti on boats that cruise for even a weekend, they simply don't have the holding capacity.

And I'll never believe that installing a marine head lowers the value of a vessel rather than increasing it. After messing around in boats for most of my life I won't buy that a properly installed marine head smells more than a porta potti.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2004 : 23:11:43

You still have, every two days for two people, the urine tank to drain. Its still not legal unless you take it to a shore side disposal or off shore. For most of us solar panels will not work year round for power either. The composting systems I used on big boats back in the 70's did not work well with infrequent use either. They quit composting if not fed regularly. Dave

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2004 : 11:07:29

There is a company in Canada that makes a composting toilet for RV's and boats. They're guarenteed not to smell. If you'd like I'll get some info for you.

I have a fixed marine head and prefer it since, in Michigan, we have marine pump-out facilities every 20 to 30 miles (on Lake Superior a days sail).

My holding tank is 12 gallons mounted under the v-berth. Have you thought about a flexible tank? You could avoid a lot of cutting.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2004 : 17:38:13

You do not want to use a flexible tank for this service. I can guarentee that you will have serious problems with one used for sewage. Dave

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2004 : 20:15:13

I prefer a porta-pottie for the simplicity and small replacement cost. There is no worse job on a boat (or RV) than replacing or repairing a built-in toilet, with the plumbing and holding tank systems full of "gunk". A porta pottie can be dumped in almost any bathroom if you are discreet about it, and as others have pointed out in this thread, many smaller inland lakes don't have pumpouts. If I was buying another porta-pottie tomorrow, I would get the Thetford model 565. Reasons to buy Thetford instead of Sanna-Pottie: 1. Thetford's holding tank has NO penetrations on the sides of the tank. The dump spout is on TOP of the tank. Sanna-Pottie has the dump spout on the side of the tank, which is a BIG problem if it springs a leak from the cap not being screwed down properly or having a faulty gasket. The Thetford 565 has a 6 gallon holding tank capacity, enough for two people for a week unless they are heavy beer drinkers.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2004 : 21:37:08

[quote]Originally posted by aeckhart
There is a company in Canada that makes a composting toilet for RV's and boats. They're guarenteed not to smell. If you'd like I'll get some info for you.

Thanx Al, I would like the info. I think we can all expect more emphasis (read pressure) on ecological disposal of human waste.[/size=1]

Edited by - stampeder on 09/04/2004 21:44:31

pierrem
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2004 : 22:08:29

my 84 has a pump out cap on the stbd side walk around. The boat has a porta potty and not connected to the shank. Does this mean that at some point there was a holding tank or did Catalina plumb in the pump out cap and shank?

PIerre

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