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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Balanced rudder

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SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2004 : 13:56:21

Hi All,

Where can I purchase a balanced rudder, and how much do they cost?

Thanks,

Steve Gravel

Portsmouth, RI
C25 - 'Lady Jane'
SR/FK

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 14:11:41

Steve,

One source is Catalina Direct. Current price is $470.80 plus $57 packing and shipping.

They are an excellent upgrade, if pricey.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

ps: I am installing a third gudgeon on mine. Just got it from CD yesterday.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 14:47:18

Hey Jim,
Are you using the third gudgeon so you can vary the height of the rudder depending on following sea conditions?

Edited by - MattL on 09/10/2004 14:47:44

SteveG
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 14:54:33

Thanks Jim,

Is Catalina the only supplier of the balanced rudder? Just thought I'd ask, in case someone else has one at a better price.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 15:24:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SteveG
 Thanks Jim,

Is Catalina the only supplier of the balanced rudder? Just thought I'd ask, in case someone else has one at a better price.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Catalina Direct is not Catalina Yachts. They are just a Catalina dealer who gets it. Almost anything that Catalina Direct sells is available from any Catalina Dealer, it's just that most dealers don't know who, what, how or why.

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 15:29:16

Steve
Try this link http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php it may help. They make them for other boats.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 18:09:32

One plus with Catalina Direct, from what I hear, is that if you give them your hull number, they will place the pintles in the correct positions. (They wouldn't do that for mine, but that was four years ago.) I can tell you that putting the pintles on yourself is tricky--the rudder is not flat, the pintles do not give or bend in any way, and there is no margin for error--especially if you have the heavy-duty gudgeons (which IMHO are substantial overkill). I didn't get the pintles exacly right, so I use a couple of washers to make sure both are carrying their share of the load (which is not much--the rudder almost wants to float off the gudgeons).

BTW, I think I paid CD about a boat unit more back then.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/10/2004 18:13:14

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2004 : 22:54:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 especially if you have the heavy-duty gudgeons (which IMHO are substantial overkill).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave - do the heavy duty gudgeons use the same bolt hole pattern as the OEM gudgeons, or do you have to drill new holes in the transom?

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2004 : 13:29:19

Uhmm ... hrmmm .... ??? ... at the risk of exposing my naivete once again ... what is a "balanced rudder"? Could my rudder be unbalanced and I don't know it? If a 'balanced rudder' is an upgrade, then an unbalanced rudder is standard?

Tongue-in-cheek, mostly. My rudder is non-folding about 4 1/2 feet deep with two mounting points, and I'm curious. I know there's at least three 'standard' rudders as well as mods folks have made (eg Arlyn)

I've shooed the pigeons off, now where are the guntles?

Greg

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2004 : 20:45:40

Matt-

Yuk, yuk. Hadn't thought of that. But, no.

I have had two incidents of gudgeons losing the screws. First, about three years ago, with the screw-into-the-transom-brass-plate original set-up. As a fix, I thru-drilled and installed robust backers on the lower, then installed a Beckman (sp) access plate and did the same for the upper.

Last week I discovered the two of the lower (thru-drilled with nuts) 1/4 in SS machine screws had broken off at the head. (The heads were still affixed to the gudgeon as a result of liberal use of Boat Caulk, but came off when I tried to use a screwdriver on them.) I replaced them with 1/4 in bolts with a shoulder (non-threaded) long enough to go completely through the transom.

My buddy Paul has three gudgeons and pintles, and I have admired that set-up for several years. I really wanted to toughen up the rudder, so I bought a new HD gudgeon, with Delrin bushing and gussets from Catalina Direct. Using the old upper pintle from my original rudder, I installed them today, thru bolting with nuts and backer. (Buddy Paul went sailing while I worked!

)

Now I have no fear that the gudgeons will ever be a problem again. I recommend that anyone that sails routinely in lively seas, like the SF Bay, to consider this upgrade. At least, thru-bolt your gudgeons with bolts and install the upper access arrangement.

Icharlot:

The CD gudgeons have the identical, three-hole pattern as the originals.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2004 : 23:06:25

Larry--the hole pattern is identical. But that doesn't necessarily solve everything. The alignment is much more critical because of the steel sleeve in the new gudgeons. I tried them, couldn't get the pintles into them, and went back to the old style (new ones from CD), which are PLENTY strong. As I've said, the new rudder literally wants to float off the gudgeons--all the braces and sleeves are completely unnecessary, IMHO. If they're worn, you can get plastic bushings at the hardware store.

Waterboy: The C-25 balanced rudder was introduced with the last couple of years of production, and projects forward of the pintles below the waterline, providing some surface that balances the forces generated by turning or trying not to turn (as with weather helm). There are some older threads and, I believe, some Tech Tip topics on this, with drawings of the shape of the rudder. If yours has straight trailing edge and a slight bend in the leading edge (top to bottom), it's not the balance design. The balanced rudder has two steps on the leading edge, and a slight bend on the trailing edge, making it vertical under water.

Those are the only two designs for the C-25. The C-250 has gone through a few more iterations, in terms of length, shape, and kick-up design (as Arlyn has discussed many times).

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 15:05:00

After I installed my new HD lower gudgeon the pintle did not slip in well so I took a 2' SS rod from a ring stand in my lab and adjusted the gudgeon alignment. The rod was a perfect pintle and slid in the gudgeon, giving me the ability to give it a little tweek, perfect fit.

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 15:33:08

Frank,

Yeah, it is pretty important that you align the two (or three) gudgeons.

I used a 1/2" straight dowell yesterday to get the three gudgeons right.
Then, with the rudder installed, wiggled the new pintle so it slid right into the new gudgeon. Then I drilled the pintle holes in place.

Here's a gudgeon installation tip:

When you upgrade or replace the gudgeons, go ahead and schmooy (means caulk or bed in Jimlich) with BoatCaulk or whatever, but only tighten the nuts down finger-tight. Insert your 1/2" alignment rod, then tighten down a little more. If you can afford to wait overnight, let the caulk set-up a little first. Why? The first time I did the upgrade the pintles would not go. The small amount of play in the gudgeons allowed them to be off just enough to deny entry (too bad our illegals policy doesn't work the same way, but I digress). So, get close, align, tighten. Also, if you can wait a bit the caulk will set up enough to avoid squeezing it all out when you tighten.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - jwilliams on 09/12/2004 15:34:27

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 16:19:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 -all the braces and sleeves are completely unnecessary, IMHO. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The heavy duty gudgeons are good to have under one circumstance: use of a "mast-up" telescoping mast crutch. Personally, I don't like the mast-up and don't have one myself, because I have seen one of these actually tear the upper gudgeon right off the transom of a Catalina 22. However, if you have a mast-up, and especially if you are going to take the boat on a long road trip with the mast supported on a mast up, I would advise the heavy-duty gudgeons should be installed, using through bolting and a larger backing plate inside the transom to spread the load.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 17:34:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 -all the braces and sleeves are completely unnecessary, IMHO. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The heavy duty gudgeons are good to have under one circumstance: use of a "mast-up" telescoping mast crutch... especially if you are going to take the boat on a long road trip with the mast supported on a mast up...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good point. I hadn't thought of using gudgeons for that purpose, and probably wouldn't do it. On my previous boat, I build a mast crutch that put the load on the top of the transom.

Edited by - on

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