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Lines Aft To Cockpit

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/08/2002 : 08:45:08

Does anyone have a CAD Drawing or have measurements of the deck organizers, clutch cleats and winches.

Specifically I am looking for 3 things. The angle and distance from/between the turning blocks (organizers) relative to the pop top and hand rail. The Distance between the clutch cleat and the winch and if anyone needed to elevate the organizers to get a smoother transition from the mast to the cleat?

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 03/08/2002 08:46:11

Edited by - on

Greg
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 10:00:58

I can send you a pic of my set up if you like.
I tried to post the pic here but couldn't understand how to do it.

Greg

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 10:48:56

Duane - there is enough room between the handrail and the pop-top to thru-bolt a 3-sheave organizer(either a Harken or a Schaefer)- but carefully measure on the port side to make sure you clear the mast step inside the cabin. The long axis should be positioned so that it divides the angle between the incoming and outgoing lines.
As for the clutch/winch set-up, the clutch needs to be much further ahead of the winch than you realise - you need to get as fair a lead with all three lines to the starboard edge of the winch as possible. I think the space on mine is about 5". I did not use any elevators on the organizers as I have turning blocks for the lines attached to the mast step plate, and the lines travel virtually on the surface of the deck.
Hope this helps!
Derek

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 10:50:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I can send you a pic of my set up if you like.
I tried to post the pic here but couldn't understand how to do it.
Greg
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Greg: Could you send it to me, too? Thanks! bristle@att.net

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:04:56

BTW, I got some numbers from Catalina Direct for a kit including masthead sheaves, 5/16" Spectra-cored all-line halyards (w/ splices), mast base plate, 4 Harken swivel blocks, 2 Harken triple organizers, 2 Spinlock triple clutches, plus all mounting hardware... Something under $750. That sounds like alot, but I priced it out and it looks like a good deal to me. They'll put the kit together for whatever number of lines you want to run aft, or using cheaper (Garhauer non-ball-bearing) organizers and blocks. I spec'd it with a couple of extra "spaces" in the organizers and clutches to allow for additions later.

More as it happens.....

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 03/08/2002 11:13:32

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:12:46

Dave,

That sounds high. I bought all my hardware from Sailnet.com and maybe spent 250 bucks. I also got some low stretch plain white 5/16ths line at 17 cents a foot.... Granted I just got doubles not triples, but the price differential is not that much..

The only thing left is to buy the teak for backing plates...

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:14:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane - there is enough room between the handrail and the pop-top to thru-bolt a 3-sheave organizer(either a Harken or a Schaefer)- .....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Do you have a pic you can email me Derek?...I will take the offer for the other picture in the first reply as well...

Dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:39:58

When you are discerning information from different boat owners - keep in mind that handrail lengths are not the same for all years . . .
On my 1981, the mounting bolts for the winch came through the base of the interior light that's over the galley area. Rope clutch is evenly spaced between the pop-top and handrail obviously. If you wait to install the turning block last, you can run the lines through it and the complementary hardware to help position it correctly. None of my hardware is raised.
Yeah, a picture would be worth a thousand words here!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:46:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

On my 1981, the mounting bolts for the winch came through the base of the interior light that's over the galley area. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve,
Talk to me about the winch and the light over the galley? How did you adjust for that, etc....

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 11:57:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
That sounds high. I bought all my hardware from Sailnet.com and maybe spent 250 bucks. I also got some low stretch plain white 5/16ths line at 17 cents a foot.... Granted I just got doubles not triples, but the price differential is not that much..
dw
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks, Duane... I checked SailNet and found that the organizers, blocks and clutches add up to about $530. I don't know about the halyards--17 cents sounds like a little lower quality than I want for the jib halyard in order to maintain constant tension all season (for the roller furlor), and I want professional splices with these high-tech cores. I'll still need to get the sheaves and plate from CD one way or the other.

Still looking...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 12:07:03

Yeah Dave,

Good point, although the stuff would be strong enough, the stretch might be a little much for halyards. I plan on using the 17 cent stuff for pole lift and downhaul only. We already have rope halyards that are long enough so that wasn't a cost consideration for us. Sailnet did have some good spectra stuff at 30 odd cents a foot, but I am not sure if the sale is still going on. That might be right up your alley.

Can't help you with the splices, I have done them but in the past on racing boats but really don't find a reason for them. They are a pain in the stern. We don't have any splices other than dock line. ....Everything is bowlined. Holds tight, doesn't let go but can be untied if need be...

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 03/08/2002 12:10:03

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 13:08:47

The fact that the mounting bolts for the winch came through the base of the galley light was purely coincidental. Kind of nice though, I drilled holes through the light base, slid the bolts through, put the nuts on, put the light cover on and, cool, no winch mounting hardware showing! But, again, who's to say that every galley light is in the same position . . .
First and foremost, I positioned the winch slightly to port aft of the clutch. As the lines are wrapped clockwise around the winch they touch the starboard side of the winch first. This way (1) the lines are coming back towards the winch from the clutch remain somewhat parallel to the pop-top and (2) you are providing a little extra space between the pop-top and the winch.
As my father used to say, "things are usually much simpler than they first appear." That phrase certainly applies here.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 13:25:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The fact that the mounting bolts for the winch came through the base of the galley light was purely coincidental. Kind of nice though, I drilled holes through the light base, slid the bolts through, put the nuts on, put the light cover on and, cool, no winch mounting hardware showing! But, again, who's to say that every galley light is in the same position . . .
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Unfortunately, we switched our lights so I am not sure if we will be able to do the same. We may need to move things around a bit...

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 15:21:50

Duane - I avoided the galley light problem by not using a clutch and winch on the port side! Port side organizer carries vang, cunningham and reefing line. The first two come back to two 150 cam cleats at the very edge of the cabin top, and the reefing line to a clam cleat mounted alongside the pop-top. This makes them much easier and quicker to adjust and they really don't need winch assistance.
On starboard the organizer leads 3 halyards back to a triple clutch and a winch - these seldom need adjusting in a big hurry!
Unfortunately I don't have a pic but I'll take some measurements tomorrow and post on Sunday when I get back from racing (eat your hearts out guys - forecast is for low 70's with 10k winds) <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 16:33:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
(eat your hearts out guys - forecast is for low 70's with 10k winds)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Derek: You should have more sense than to say something like that to folks up here at this time of the year--there's just no telling what we might do! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 17:20:06

Here are photos you might have already seen. You can judge the placement of the clutches in relation to the handrail. I located the clutches next to the second handrail support "post" from the back so as not to block a handrail "grab" area. Any farther forward and they're hard to reach from the cockpit. Any farther back and they get too close to the winch.

Be careful when positioning the deck organizers. On my boat there is a "ledge" on the cabin ceiling that extends back from the bulkhead about six inches. You don't want to drill into the bulkhead or into the edge of the "ledge".

As was mentioned by Steve of OJ, you can install the organizers last. Run the lines and duct tape the organizers in place to get the correct position before drilling.

<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/deck.jpg" border=0>

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2002 : 20:34:56

Duane,

Lots of good info here from others. Y'all have really been thinking about this problem. Here's what I've done so far. Let me start by saying my C-25 is a 1979 pop-top standard rig.

First, I installed the mast base plate from Catalina Direct. (No, the holes didn't line up; yes I had to redrill all of them.)

The next change I made was to move the stock (7-loop?) teak handrails forward about 14", and outboard about 1-1/2". This puts them out to the edge of the beige non-skid, and close to the solar panels (see photos I will try to attach below), leaving a 4" or 5" gap between the handrail and pop-top at the aft end (where the clutches go). I've heard that the handrails vary from boat to boat, but that's where mine are at.

My port cabin top winch is located as far aft and outboard as practical. It's out to the edge of the beige non-skid area. As for the galley light, I upgraded mine to a 5" round stainless steel one with two bulbs (dual brightness). That new light fixture is located as far aft and outboard as practical. The cabin top winch is located concentric to it. As Steve Madsen mentioned, this can hide the winch mounting bolt nuts, which it did in my case. Speaking of that light, when mounting the winch, I drilled through the electrical wiring for the galley light TWICE. I know of no way to avoid the possibility of this happening, and if it does, the project gets somewhat more troublesome.

There is a 6" gap between the Lewmar #7 winch and the Spinlock XAS triple line clutches too allow for a semi-fair lead, as mentioned by Derek Crawford.

As Steve Madsen advised, run your lines before mounting your hardware. Install the mast base plate and its turning blocks first. Then the winch, then run the lines through those, and the free-floating organizers and clutches. Using bungy cords to keep the lines slightly taught, move the clutches and organizers around on deck to find the best positions for fair leads. In particular, the hand rail and the edge of the pop-top are both curved, so you need to see how that's ghoing to affect your leads. When I thought I knew where a piece should go, I drilled one or two "test" mounting holes to locate it, and moved on to the next part. The idea here is that if a component has to move, there will be as few holes to patch as possible. (I patched one 3/16" hole.)

As John Mason described quite well, you need to be careful where the organizer mounting screws end up in the overhead. The forward set of screws on mine are about 4" to 4-1/2" aft of the main bulkhead. I used Harken #273 organizers, I think, but #271 has the same footprint. As for elevating or angling the organizers for a fair lead, mine worked out just fine bolted flat on the deck.

As you probably know, it's a real good idea to take precautions to prevent water on deck from getting to the plywood core at mounting holes, especially for heavily loaded hardware like we're discussing here. After temporarily mounting things to verify the layout (that's when I hit the wiring the first time), I drilled all mounting holes 2x oversize through the deck and core down to the liner (that's when I hit the wiring the second time), dug out a bit more core, refilled the holes with glass reinforced epoxy, and redrilled to final diameter. A slight countersink from the deck side creates a nice thick spot (like an 'O'-ring) in the bedding compound right where you need it the most.

Here are a couple of quick pictures of my partially installed lines lead aft. Let me know if you need higher resolution, or more info, especially repairing the cast in place factory light wiring. I'm an expert on that now!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/c25_afthalyards_01.jpg" border=0>

(that's<http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/c25_afthalyards_01.jpg>

<img src="http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/c25_afthalyards_02.jpg" border=0>

(that's<http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/c25_afthalyards_02.jpg>

Although this installation isn't complete yet, I've used what's there a few times, and have been very pleased with the results so far.

Good luck!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

OK, the [Preview] feature just barfed. I'll try to post this as-is, and hope for the best.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2002 : 17:06:02

Duane - I guess pride cometh before a fall! NOAA's 70 degrees and 10k winds turned out to be 65 degrees and 40 knots! Racing was cancelled....
Derek
P.S. Leon's set-up looks really nice - but I didn't have to move any handrails which made it a lot easier job, everything just fit into the alloted spaces.

Edited by - on

Sabur
Deckhand

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8 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2002 : 01:46:27

Duane,

Just my 2 cents worth: I mounted my organizers as far aft as I could without interfering with the pop top to keep the turning angle down (keeping the line as close to "straight" as possible from the base of the mast to the clutches/winches). This should reduce the amount of turning resistance and therefore the less pull needed on the line to do whatever the line does if I remember my physics correctly. That should be the theory anyway. In practice, the difference in angles may not be that great and the difference in the "pull" needed may be negligible; I don't know. It does however, get the organizers away from the ledge on the inside surface inside my 1983 cabin.

I have external lines and a deck organizer under the base of the mast. All my organizers, clutches and winch are flush with the deck; no spacers. Winch is on the port side and I put the line with the highest loading, in my case the jib halyard, on the most inboard of the clutch "holes" (due of course to needing the line to go clockwise around the starboard side ot the winch) and positioned the winch to slightly favor the jib halyard fairlead. The other two lines on the port side are the main halyard and reefing lines which, more often than not of course, don't need the use of the winch.

I do not have the light position problem on my 1983 model nor did I modify or move my handrails.

Mike Bur
Excalibur
#3959
1983 SR/FK

Edited by - on

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