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lashing down tiller help.

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/12/2004 : 22:34:32

I need a good method for tieing my tiller for extended sails. do any of you have a good system? I don't mind building a custom one. can you include pics? have they had any problems when expiriencing weather helm?

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:00:07

Poor man's autohelm... a Long bungee cord looped once or twice around the tiller and hooked to the stern cleats on each side. Experiment to get the right length and tension to suit your needs.

Excessive weather helm in a C25 is usually the result of improperly trimmed or sized sails for the conditions at hand. The balance between the headsail and mainsail is critical. Experiment by altering the trim (sheeting) on each sail and you will see how the boat will develop weather or lee helm depending on your actions.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:21:35

If you are looking for a good method to lash the tiller for "extended sails" then you need an autopilot.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 00:25:26

I second Don's emotion.

Brooke

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 01:06:19

What would be a good brand and model of auto pilot? I was talking to the admrial about this topic this afternoon and she sounded intersted. Got to strike while the iron is hot.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 07:03:16

I like the Raytheon- auto helm 1 or 2000 model. Practical sailor likes the Simrad unit. I did not like the last Navico tiller pilot that I used. Dave

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 11:48:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What would be a good brand and model of auto pilot? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

For the basic models, there are two choices ([url="http://www.defender.com/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi?keywords=tillerpilot&frames=yes&store=yes&search_request_button=Search"]Defender[/url] prices): Simrad Tp10 ($260) or Raymarine St1000 ($400).

The Simrad unit is clearly less expensive. It also has an end-throw stop switch which turns off the motor at the end of the throw which can help prevent damage.

The Raymarine unit can theoretically be controlled by your GPS.

I think they both now come with a remote, but I'm uncertain if it's useful.

Both companies seem to have excellent reputations for warranty repairs and otherwise, although I went with the Simrad on price and because my research indicated needed repairs were less common (although I'm sure my sampling technique was far from perfect). Also, the GPS hookup wasn't important for me because slight manual course adjustments every 30 minutes or so are simple and a matter of normal watch procedures. I found out about the end-throw kill switch issue after I bought mine.

Some people advocate getting a higher end model (either brand) -- to me that's not worth the additional cost for the needs of a C25. In any case, it's an easy installation and a great upgrade. Definitely hit it while it's hot!

Edited by - RichardG on 09/13/2004 12:28:01

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 15:25:26

Thanks Richard,
Will bring it up with the admrial. She just phoned telling me she has another part time job. She teaches English at the local comunity college, and she just talked to the college in the next big town over, Modesto.

Edited by - on

Jack Heaston
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 20:17:31

I bought the Simrad last winter for the reasons stated above.
When engaged, it almost continuously moved back and forth, even after I let it steer for 20 minutes to "self-assess" the automatic settings for sea state and gain. I tried various combinations of sea state and gain, but nothing seemed to alter the back and forth movement of the tiller pilot arm. It would go out an 1/8, immediatly came back a 1/16 and go back out. This seemed independent of conditions. It even did it on flat glass calm water.
The auto tack feature worked fine the first couple dozen times, then took to going hard over and shutting down on occasion, and finally never worked at all. This was annoying. Not sure if it was coincident with my manual sea state and gain settings. The tiller pilot would maintain a course in pretty nasty conditions (15kts and 2' wind waves).
Called the Simrad folks in WA. Very nice man gave me the routine for a "factory reset" and said to try it and then try the initializing procedure. I did. No change, except that I had to reconfigure for port mounting, so I know the reset worked. Tried the compass calibration in calm conditions, but it failed on three separate tries.
Guess I'm done sailing for this season and will call Simrad back for a warranty return authorization and ship it back to them for repairs.
We'll see how that turns out. I hope Richard is right about their reputation for standing behind their product.
I had what, I think, was an Autohelm 1000 on a Catalina 27 and it worked flawlessly. Don't recall it rapidly jerking back and forth like the Simard model seems to do.
Maybe I got a cull and others are having better luck?
Would be curious to know if others have noticed this rapid movement?
Thanks
Jack
83 FK/SR 3944 Rag Act

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 20:45:52

That's too bad, Jack. Hopefully, you just got a bad one and they'll fix or replace it easily, especially since you've had it less than a year.

Mine has never had any such problems and handles it just the opposite -- at first it tends to react slowly to small track changes for the first minute or so until it "learns" the conditions, especially when going slow (as in leaving the marina). I've never touched the seastate or gain controls from the factory default, but I did reset it to port mount (motor on starboard). I don't normally use the autotack feature, but it's handy when free hands are scarce when a fish hits.

Good luck with the company.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 00:06:07

I also like my Simrad TP10.I used it for most of a 9 day cruise this summer, from motoring to 12 mph wind on the nose. I was very pleased.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 08:29:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jack Heaston
 Would be curious to know if others have noticed this rapid movement?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My Simrad TP20 behaves the same way, constantly "hunting" to maintain course. I have tried to reduce the gain in hopes of de-sensitizing it and calming it down, but this hasn't helped, the unit is in almost constant motion. I don't like this, as it quickly runs the battery down, and is probably wearing the unit out faster than it should. The Auto Tack feature on mine has never worked - it goes hard over and stays there. Also, it does not seem to work with my Garmin 168 GPS to follow a route or track, even though the Garmin is supposed to be 100% NMEA compliant. In fact the only function on this autopilot that does work is the basic hold-compass-course, which is does do pretty well, although the constant "hunting" does get on my nerves after a few minutes.

Edited by - on

Jack Heaston
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 15:52:58

Larry
Thanks much for the reply and info on your Simrad TP20. Sounds like this constant "hunting" feature might be indemic to the Simrad product. I'll call Defender, where I bought it, and explain my problem. I'm happy to ship it back to Simrad for repairs/replacement, but my next trip to see if it works, will be to Puget Sound in 2005, and by then it will be out of warranty. Hope I can get Defender to agree to take it back in trade then for an Autohelm 1000, if this is the case.
Otherwise, I'll them it's a POS and try to return it to them now.
Seems like the old expression, "You get what you pay for," applies here.
Thanks again for your input.
Appreciate it.
Jack
83 FK/SR 3944 Rag Act

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 18:13:05

I use an Autohelm 2000 Plus. I've put a couple thousand miles on it in a broad variety of sailing conditions. I'm satisfied with its performance and reliability. It's fast and powerful.

I haven't gotten around to connecting all the fancy electronic interfaces. I doubt that the GPS waypoint seeking feature is all that useful under sail. The optional windvane might be a handy accessory.

The lack of limit switches in the Autohelm 2000 Plus is annoying. When it reaches full travel, it draws much higher than normal current, sometimes tripping the circuit breaker it's connected to.

It doesn't seem to do the hunting thing unless I have way too much sail up.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 19:15:59

My Raytheon ST2000, installed two years ago, has become more of a necessity than a toy. Every time I go out without setting it up, I find myself scrambling below decks to fetch it. The tack feature takes me through the wind just fine, but will not establish a new heading, rather it goes all the way to the stop and pulses and beeps. I used to use lines secured to the stern horn cleats, wrapped around the tiller, to maintain course, but I could never leave the tiller for more than 10 seconds. As the commercial says…”you are now free to move about the country”. Too many safety and convenience items to mention. A definite upgrade to your enjoyment on board. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 21:08:15

Why couldn't a tiller extender (lightning stick? hiking stick?) be set at a 90 degree angle, with the other end secured in a clamp on top of the coaming (or sticking up from the side of the cockpit seat) to keep the tiller from moving?

Steve

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 21:09:11

The tiller tamer gets it done on a lake.

http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/iMovieTheater73.html

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 21:13:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why couldn't a tiller extender (lightning stick? hiking stick?) be set at a 90 degree angle, with the other end secured in a clamp on top of the coaming (or sticking up from the side of the cockpit seat) to keep the tiller from moving?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It can, and it would work as long as there were no wind shifts, puffs, or lulls; or wakes from passing boats; or you didn't move around significantly on the boat. The great advantage of an autopilot is that, barring something huge, it will keep you on the same compass course regardless of minor variations in the wind, water, or trim.

Brooke

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 09:03:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Todd Frye
 My Raytheon ST2000, installed two years ago, has become more of a necessity than a toy...The tack feature takes me through the wind just fine, but will not establish a new heading, rather it goes all the way to the stop and pulses and beeps...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Todd,

When I had my Raymarine autopilot serviced by the factory, the technician doing the repairs called me personally to tell me to avoid using the autotack feature for the very reason you stated (it goes all the way to the stop and pulses and beeps) because it leads to failure of the drive mechanism due to overdriving. This is exactly what caused my autopilot to fail. I have the ST 1000+ and I asked the technician if maybe I should upgrade to the ST 2000+ and he said that the problem is compounded with the ST2000+ because of it's faster response.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Todd Frye
 My Raytheon ST2000, installed two years ago, has become more of a necessity than a toy. Every time I go out without setting it up, I find myself scrambling below decks to fetch it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I keep my autopilot nestled in a long tube sock in the starboard cockpit seat locker so I don't have to leave the tiller to retrieve it.

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 12:07:52

Thanks for the heads up Don. I figured it was screaming for help when it ran all the way to one stop and started complaining. No more auto tacking. I keep my autohelm below decks because it’s my baby and I want to protect it as much as possible, but I like your idea of accessibility. I will try to work on a compromise. Fair winds. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 22:11:12

I have the TP20 and it also goes nuts when heading upwind. I tried the reset and adjustments when heading upwind I end up using at "power steering".

Down wind no sweat works like a charm.

I use the remote when I drop my jiob and want to go below deck while single handing. Never do I fully trust it though.

I hooked my Magellan 330m GPS up and it works pretty good. I actually have it hooked up through my RayData unit and also feeding a chart program on my LapTop sometimes.

Yeah I know too many gadgets, but I am a "Geek" by trade.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 22:49:20

Bob, I've never had that problem with the ST1000.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Jack Heaston
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 12:01:31

Regarding the Simrad TP-10 Tiller Pilot
Spoke with the Customer Service person at Defender. She checked with the buyer, who told her that they had sold 45-50 TP-10s this year and mine was the first complaint they had received.
Will send mine back to Simrad and try to get the warranty extended to next summer's sailing season. If they can't correct the constant movement of the drive motor, I will try to get my money back and get a 1000 ST.
BTW, Defender has the Raymarine 1000 ST Plus Autohelm (including remote)on sale for $355 through 9/24, if anyone's contemplating buying one.
Best regards,
Jack
83 FK/SR 3944 Rag Act

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 17:43:47

My boat came from the PO with a Forespar adjustable hiking stick attached to the tiller with a "pocket" receptacle in the cockpit coaming. It holds a course very well when the wind is ahead of the beam and the sails are set. It's not an autopilot, but it sure is a lot cheaper. I wouldn't be without it. I'd include a picture but don't know how to attach one to a message.

Mike, 2083, Calamity Jane

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 20:11:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">a "pocket" receptacle in the cockpit coaming<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Like [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?keyword=190934&resultCt=1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=14557&y=6&x=25"]this[/url]?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 20:30:31

The "lockbox" for the tiller extender is a nice short-term solution, as is the bungee wrapped on the tiller. The latter makes it easy to adjust course by grabbing the wraps and twisting them on the tiller. It also allows for quick changes, since the bungee allows the tiller to be pushed or pulled as needed. But fundamentally, these solutions are good only for short distances--in my experience, 10-30 seconds, depending on wind speed. No matter how you set the tiller, if you leave it in a fixed postion, you're going to point up or bear off eventually. The autopilot corrects for that. If you want to do "extended (hands-off) sailing", you need the autopilot.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/17/2004 20:31:33

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