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What do you think of this sail? (Racers?)

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/22/2004 : 15:08:37

Hi guys -

2004 race season is over, other than the crying. So - the boat comes out next Monday and preparations for the 2005 season are underway. We will be purchasing a new headsail and I wanted to ask your thoughts.

Catalina Direct has spec'd a sail for me to meet my unusual circumstances - sail has to be roller furled, has to be 152% LP, and has to be able to handle drifter days and reef down for 25 knot days b/c we're only allowed one headsail. They suggest Pentex diax platinum fabric, tri-radial cut. The sail will be from 5.0 oz fabric - except the section that would be exposed when the sail was well reefed which would be from 5.5oz fabric. They would charge $1443.

The strange requirements are because we race the boat in crusing class (jib and main) because the smallest/slowest spinnaker class around here contains boats like Frers 30's and other scarey creatures. The cruising boats race in cruising class. Our rating (255) is based on base rating of 234, plus 12 in cruising class (246), plus 3 for largest headsail (249), plus 6 for the recreatinal handicap (255). The recreational handicap means one headsail over 110.

We're already going to lose 3 for going to a bigger sail. I can live with that. We cannot lose the six for the recreational handicap, however. So - one sail has to do it all.

Thoughts?

Justin

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 15:57:45

Sometimes we get so close to something we cannot see how bizzare it has become. That is bizzare. There is now way in H that I would pay that for a sail that is going to be slow any time except when it is completely out. Sorry I think your efforts to be a rule beater are taking you in the wrong direction.
Get a furler that lets you change sails (Harken)
get a light 155
Get a sturdy flat 115
use one or the other for the race

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 17:23:55

I think I may have been unclear. I cannot have a 115. Under the recreational handicap I can only have one sail with a LP greater than 110. So I get a 110. No problem. The problem is when the 110 is too small but the 152 is too big. I can't have and #2 or #3 to cover the range 111 - 151. If I could I'd be all set since I have a perfectly good 135 now.

So, I'm stuck with finding one sail that will carry me from conditions where the 110 is too small (which in my book is anything under 25 knots) to drifter conditions.

Artificial contstraint? Yep, but its gotta be b/c I can't give up the 6 seconds/mile I lose to for giving up the recreational handicap. On a typical 6 mile windward/leward that's 36 seconds I don't have.

Does that change your answer any?

(Added: Somehow that post reads as though its said with an attitude. It isn't. Its an honest question)

Edited by - takokichi on 09/22/2004 17:25:13

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 17:35:32

It doesn't change my opinion of the sail that they want to sell you. They sound like they are trying to meet your needs but I find it hard to believe it isn't a mistake. I race with the same attitude I play golf, I race the conditions, not the other boats. I would not be happy with a rolled up 152 at 20 knots. Good luck.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2004 : 18:37:57

Justin - that seems to be a weird set of regulations! Why do you get an EXTRA 6 seconds for running a 152 (why not a 155?). I would petition the powers-that-be to change the rules for the Cruising Fleet. Most PHRF venues calculate ratings on a 155% genoa, and if you have a smaller headsail you (sometimes) get an extra allowance.
Derek

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 10:22:40

Derek -

I get an extra 3 for being under 152.1%. I get the six for running only one headsail over 110%LP. And I agree, it is crazy.

I could deal with losing the 3 for going up to 155, but I don't see the margin. I cannot deal with losing the 6 for declaring two headsails over 110%. So much of our season is light air that I need the best rating I can get since this ain't much of a light air boat.

Given the constraints, what would you be looking for in a sail?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 11:24:51

I would talk to another sailmaker other than Catalina Direct to get some comparisons and different opinions. Especially since they are in the All boat parts business - talk to someone in the Sail making only business. Try North and Sobstad Elvestrom....Even if they quote you something you can't afford, they might mention some sort of option or design idea that somebody else could make.

dw

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 11:48:45

Justin, I'm thinking that you are buying an expensive, inefficient sail in order to beat the rule and get a little extra handicap allowance. You're trading the efficiency and "shape-ability" of hank-on sails for the inefficiency of roller-furling, and you're getting handicap time in exchange. Your boat won't be as fast, and it won't point as high, but you can lag a little farther behind the other boats and still have a chance to win on handicap. That means other boats will overtake and pass you more easily, they'll be able to luff you up and force you to tack off, and they can blanket your sails more easily. Because you'll be sailing further back in the pack, you'll be sailing in disturbed air all day.

I've never used a sail like you are proposing, so I don't have any accurate way of comparing the two, but I have a feeling that you are losing more than you're gaining in the trade-off. With roller furling, even if you are highly skilled, you can never get much better than mediocre performance out of the sail (by racing standards), but with hank on sails, you can get the best performance that your skills allow.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 12:44:17

How do you get by with having the 135 if you can only have one sail larger than 110?

I think Frank was saying that you have the 152 or 155 and you have the 115, then before you go out, you look at the conditions, make the decision and carry one sail aboard.

Frank, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 13:24:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Mason
 How do you get by with having the 135 if you can only have one sail larger than 110?

I think Frank was saying that you have the 152 or 155 and you have the 115, then before you go out, you look at the conditions, make the decision and carry one sail aboard.

Frank, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 13:36:14

Justin - Steve is absolutely correct in his assessment of roller-furling. On our lake (in the Cruiser Fleet only) you get an extra 12 seconds for a R/F with UV cover (any size headsail) - and it is insufficent if you race against non-R/F boats.
Can you clarify one point? Are you allowed to register and carry only one large headsail for the entire season, or can you register and carry either large or small for each race? In the latter case, having a 155% for light/moderate conditions and a 110% for heavy stuff would work well.
I would still solicit support from the whole Cruising Fleet to petition the PHRF folks for an intelligent change in the regs.
Derek

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 14:41:47

Guys-

We can register and carry two sails for the season. Both can be on board at any time. Sail can be changed mid race, or between races in a series. I have only the 135 now. I could get both a 152 and 110 or something.

As far as the roller furling issue goes - everyone in the crusing fleet carries roller furling. We could have a better unit than the CDI, but its what we have, at least for now.

Probably I need to bite the bullet and get a new heavy air jib and light air jib. I'm still left with a hole in the inventory, but I'd be asking less of the big sail.

If I did that what would you recommend up to and including 110% for the small jib?

jwa

Edited by - takokichi on 09/23/2004 14:43:06

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 14:43:18

Justin,

I haven't found the "new thread you've created" so I am putting this here. Steve Milby is right on. By the time its all said and done, you might need more than the time your gaining with the allowances just to hold position. Depending on your average course lengths it might be worth it. Plus, you'd be able to make sail changes (take a look at a tuff luff) underway and always have the right sail for the job.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 16:37:24

Regarding the 6 second penalty--in my opinion that's nothing. On the Potomac, C-25's are rated at 240. I noticed that our arch-rival has a 170 genoa for the light conditions we usually encounter here. I did get their handicap lowered to 234, but our fleet captain pointed out to me that it would have made absolutely no difference in a single race based on the prior year's results. No race result -- not just against us, would have been changed. Armed with that information, I bought a 170! I'd worry a lot more about boat speed and a lot less on the handicap.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 16:57:59

Thanks for the information, Bruce.

I guess I should point out that from time to time the difference between our position and the one ahead or behind us _would_ have been impacted by a 6 second change in our handicap.

That said - Bruce, you're absolutely right. I should be thinking boatspeed, boatspeed, boatspeed.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2004 : 23:01:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by takokichi
 I guess I should point out that from time to time the difference between our position and the one ahead or behind us _would_ have been impacted by a 6 second change in our handicap.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
How would it have been impacted if, at the same time, your boat was slower? Your rolled up sail is going to sail slower and lower than you might think. Also remember that the larger a roller-furling sail, the higher the clew has to be. You can have hank-on sails cut to sweep the deck--check Derek's pic. That makes a 110 more powerful without adding significant heel, and substantially increases the size of a 155.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/23/2004 23:10:18

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2004 : 03:35:59

Maybe I'm not that bright right now, its late. I have my old 110 and a new 150. These seem to cover all conditions for me. You are not going to effect a head sail change in the middle of a race anyway if you are using hanked on sails so why bother with 135 or anything else. I haven't had any problems yet with these two.

Edited by - on

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