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Topping lift: alternatives to backstay pigtail?

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bill
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/11/2002 : 08:45:15

When I purchased a 1982 25 last August, The topping lift attached to the backstay caused me more grief than the leaking windows. This year I'd like to replace this with something else.

Looking through the Catalina Direct book, I see they offer a topping lift kit which terminates on the boom. I suppose that this is one way to do this but I was wondering if it wouldn't be best to terminate this at the mast or, eventually, led back to a cam cleat on deck.

I guess my question is this - is it as easy as attaching some block to the mast head and running a line down the mast? If so can anyone give me a recommendation as to block size and line size? Or should I just call CD and have them spec it out?

Thanks,
Bill

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 09:40:16

Bill, I'm not sure I would even call the cable that comes off the backstay, that attaches to the boom, a topping lift. I use that short cable simply keep the boom raised and centered when not sailing. Typically one employs blocks and the like for adjusting sail trim and shape. Briefly, for my topping lift I simply tied a 1/4" line the the top of the mast and the end of the boom. This line (in my opinion) keeps the boom from crashing down into the cockpit when you drop the main sail. I tied it so the aft end of boom angles down about 10 degrees when main is down. When the main is raised (and there's wind) the topping lift arches outward away from the leech. In fact, we leave the short cable from the backstay attached to the boom until just before we raise and just after we lower the main.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 10:26:05

I've seen many different setups, both fixed and adjustable, for a topping lift. One setup that I particularly liked was one where this fellow took one of his wire halyards(he was converting to all rope), and used it for his topping lift. The wire halyard already had thimbles on each end and when attached to the masthead(on the same pin as the backstay) the wire came down to about 5 feet from the end of the boom. At the end of this wire he attached a small block(1/4"). On the end of the boom, a length of 1/4" line was attached that was then pulled through the block on the end of the wire and returned back to the end of the boom. This end of the line went through the center of a cleat style jam cleat and a stopper knot was tied on the end of the line. This prevents the line from inadvertently coming out and sending the boom crashing onto the cockpit. The length of the line was such that when it was released and the stopper knot was at the cleat, it was slack enough to not affect the mainsail. When in port, he could pull on the line and engage it in the jam cleat to lift the boom out of the way allowing more room in the cockpit. What I really liked about this system is the recycling of his wire halyard and it's simplicity.

Don & Jennifer, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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John Mason
Admiral

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Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 12:37:19

I'm in the process of adding a topping lift that leads back to a clam cleat on the deck. But I'm running it inside the mast so it required a 3" x 3/16" slot cut about five feet up from the base of the mast and a thin sheave at the masthead.

The amount of weight the topping lift has to handle isn't great, unless you have people riding on the boom<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. Even in high wind during reefing it's not going to be a lot. At the base of the mast I'm using a block with a working load rating of 350 lbs. It's a harken 1 3/4". Of course, then I went and bought 1/8" Spectron 12 with a strength of 1800 lbs for the topping lift(just a little overkill).

I asked Brion Toss on his "Spartalk" forum http://www.briantoss.com/ and he suggested just mounting a cheek block at the top of the mast, then run the topping lift up to it and down the side of the mast to a block and back to the cockpit. I didn't like the idea of the line slapping the mast in the middle of the night, so I decided to go internal with it.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 13:52:25

We just use the main halyard...works great

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 14:09:27

Now that's what I call the epitome of the K.I.S.S. principle <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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n/a
deleted

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29 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 14:54:55

Brion's solution is a good one since it gives you a spare halyard for free. Another simple setup is a plastic covered wire pendant running from the masthead to about two feet from the boom end with a small block attached. A length of 1/4" line completes the 2:1 purchase - starting at a becket at the boom end and terminating at a cleat a few feet up the boom - within easy reach from the cockpit.

Andy P.
#5708

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 15:43:52

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now that's what I call the epitome of the K.I.S.S. principle <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I also forgot to mention that you can jack that thing up pretty high when at anchor and get it the heck out of the way!!

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 17:08:18

Bill – I simply mounted a shackle on the back side of the mast head casing (there should be a pin there) with a small block. I used ¼” line from the back of the boom up through the block, back down to the deck where it turns out and back to the cockpit. (see this[url="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/tt008.htm"] Tech Tip on clutches[/url]) If you are going to use wire at some point you may have to switch to line so you can adjust the topping lift.
Blue underlined words are a "hot" link.
Good luck.

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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John Mason
Admiral

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687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 19:15:51

Duane,
But what do you do when the main is up and you need to reef? Let me guess, you have a rigid boom vang.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2002 : 22:29:01

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,
But what do you do when the main is up and you need to reef? Let me guess, you have a rigid boom vang.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
 John – I know you asked Duane but to give you an idea of what can happen with a topping lift run up to the top on the mast and back down to the cockpit here's what I do. I have the main halyard, reefing line and topping lift all on one side led back to the cockpit on the side with the cabintop winch. To reef, I put tension on the topping lift so the boom won’t drop, then ease the main while taking in the reefing line. I can reef in less than a minute on the fly, singlehanded. I do not have a rigid boom vang.

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 01:29:39

Bill,

On Saturday I installed a Garhauer RV12-1 Rigid Boom Vang.
http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=40

It took care of the topping lift problem and gave me a vang which my boat did not have. I tried the setup yesterday. It sails much better downwind thanks to the vang and I don't have to fuss with a topping lift for raising the main, reefing, etc. Raising the main is much easier.

If you decide to go with the rigid vang setup, talk to Mark at Garhauer. Ask him to make you the same mast base attachment that he made for my standard rig (it will be a different size for a Tall rig). It uses 8 bolts and wraps around the mast. Its got a bolt that I've attached with a wing nut. This allows me to remove the vang to raise the pop top. Installation was easy. Drill and tap eight 1/4" holes in the mast base. Drill and tap seven 1/4" holes in the boom (vang attaches to boom using a piece of sail track). You're done! The hardest part for me was removing the old soft vang attachment points which had frozen in place.

If anyone is interested, let me know, and I'll try to take photos this weekend.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 03/12/2002 01:40:07

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 08:10:45

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 10:02:25

Hey All,

I'm confused.

This thread has started me thinking about adding a topping lift. At the present time, when moored, when the sails are down, I use the main halyard to hold the boom up.

If I use the main halyard as a topping lift when I'm sailing, I'd need a second main halyard to raise the main sail. Am I missing something?

Don Peet
C25, 1665, osmepneo
On the hard near the Great Sacandaga Lake

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 10:53:20

Hey Don Peet, I was wondering the same thing. I'm all for mechanicals that impact sail shape. From my previous post, I've got a 1/4" line that runs from the top of the mast of the end of the boom. I don't have to switch or adjust anything. It's always just where I need it, when I need it without giving it a thought.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 11:34:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In that instance we would used the pigtail for that brief period of time..
dw
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hmmmm... Duane, have you actually done that in a stiff breeze? It seems like you'd need to hold the boat head-to-wind for as long as it takes to reef, possibly losing all way--not a really safe situation with the boom bridled like that. The topping lift or rigid vang allows you to luff and reef the main while still sailing upwind on the jib. I wouldn't recommend the bridle for that purpose, but I've never tried it...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 13:20:26

Dave,
That was my point. I was trying to rib Duane a little<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>, but it kinda fell flat. Sorry Duane.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/12/2002 : 16:01:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dave,
That was my point. I was trying to rib Duane a little<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>, but it kinda fell flat. Sorry Duane.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

John and Dave

No problem...I can take the ribbing....We don't race the wasp so nine times out of ten if we need a reef, it goes in at the dock. The sail only has one reef point so your options then while on the water would be to shake it out or take it down. I have in fact reefed in some nasty crap out on Lake Erie, and your right, it is tough staying head to wind...but we did manage to pull it off, just a little extra work. The pigtail thingy did the job.

Since we don't reef out on the water much, I don't mind the extra work every once in a while...

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 03/12/2002 16:04:04

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 14:29:06

Maybe I'm missing something here - but why do you need to put on the topping lift when reefing? and why do you come head to wind?
On "This Side Up" the topping lift (3/16" line) runs from masthead to about 2' above the boom and ends in a block. From here a simple purchase system (also 3/16") ends in a V-jam cleat at the end of the boom. When the main is raised the topping lift is eased to allow the boom weight to shape the main. In drifter conditions where this flattens the main too much, we tighten the topping lift to give the main shape.
When we reef, we keep going to weather and just ease the main halyard to a predetermined point and haul on the reefing line, then retension the main halyard. Simple, quick & easy.
In other words, our topping lift is only tensioned in drifter conditions or when in the slip (and when there it is shortened all the way to raise the boom out of the way).
Derek (just back from a trip to the Gulf - of Mexico, that is).

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Bristle
Admiral

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834 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 16:36:20

Derek: Your topping lift is probably also tensioned when you ease the main halyard to reef--unless you have a rigid vang. Then when you re-tension the reefed sail, the topping lift eases again. I mention going head-to-wind only if somebody (Duane?) is using the pigtail to hold the boom while reefing--otherwise, the main will have a lot of pressure.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 03/15/2002 16:42:09

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