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C25 mast stepping help

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Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:36:17

I need to build a stepping system (SR w/furl). I've searched and have seen the A-frame and will probably go with that. What I couldn't find is how to attach the bottom parts of the A-frame. Any pics out there? Detailed descriptions?

Scooter
C25 '89 SR/WK #5878 "Square Knot"
Vandemere NC.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 19:16:51

Scooter,

I'm switching from the single gin pole to the a-frame next year. I plan on using two old turn buckle toggles. They will attach securly to the chain plates and to the legs of the a-frame, which I will fabrcate out of 2x4's.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 19:24:05

Assuming you have seen the diagram in the tech tips, it doesn't make much sense until you have built it. It's really pretty simple. I just recently built mine and should be using it for the first time next weekend.

We'll see if I can describe it so it makes sense.

Disconnect your foreward shroud. You should be left with a piece of the chainplate that sticks up from the deck looking something like this.

----
| O | <-- notice the hole
------- < deck level

The "pipe nipple" at the bottom of the A=frame has two sets of holes drilled in it. The top set of holes has a bolt run through it and the bottom of the A-frame as a pivot point. You set the nipple on top of the chain plate attachment lining up the bottom set of holes in the nipple with the hole in the chain plate and run a bolt through it.

As you might imagine the measurements on the diagram for where exactly to drill the hole are important to get everything to line up.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 19:41:33

I added a 10' long raising-assist boom (prototype made from 2" pipe) to the front of my EZ-Loader trailer. Very easy to add.. bolts right on (to that particular trailer anyway)

Works great. Doesn't do any good for raising the mast on the water tho.

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 19:44:13

Addition to my original post just in case we weren't talking about the same plans for the A-frame.

Below is the reference to the diagram I was referring to in the tech tips.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/bearsad1.html

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 21:56:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Scooter
 I need to build a stepping system (SR w/furl). I've searched and have seen the A-frame and will probably go with that. What I couldn't find is how to attach the bottom parts of the A-frame. Any pics out there? Detailed descriptions?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Scooter,

Here are a couple of photos that might help. The first shows a closeup of the bottom of the A-frame, and the second shows how it attaches to the forward lower shroud chainplate (just as Tom describes with his diagram).

'Hope that helps ... good luck with your mast!

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 22:36:51

Buzz,

Your center chainplate attachment looks a little different than mine? Looks like their are two shrouds attached to it?

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2004 : 23:32:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TRogers
 Buzz,

Your center chainplate attachment looks a little different than mine? Looks like their are two shrouds attached to it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Tom,

That line you see on the inside is a flag halyard that goes up to the spreader.

When I bought my boat, I had no idea how to rig it. I figured it all out, except I've only recently come to find out that I've never done it quite right. Thanks to this Forum, I found out that a standard rig (like mine) should use the inner attachment point for the upper shroud. Well, that would really screw up my flag halyard idea, so I've always attached the upper shroud to the outer attachment point on the chain plate.

Frankly, those two attachment points are so close together, I can't see that it matters. Anyway, it works for me, so I hope my rigging faux pas isn't a big boo boo

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2004 : 08:02:25

There are some real good ideas here and each works and here is mine. The method I use is taken from Royce with some adjustments. I use the spinnaker pole as a gin pole on the front of the mast guided by a bridle attached to the bases of the two lifeline stanchions each side of the upper shrouds. The power for the lift is the main sheet line and blocks attached to the chain plate of the forestay, all connected to a ring at the other end of the pole using the forestay from the top of the mast. I use the spinnaker halyard for a safety line before attaching the forestay. The upper shrouds are loosened but not detached as they steady the mast above the 45 degree angle. Leaving them tight can bend the fittings at the turnbuckle. The thinking for this method was to be able to raise the mast in the water after launch with what was on the boat. Safety and less expensive launch is also a big factor. Hoist fees versus travel lift and distance to fall from the boat and also lower mast during a cruise if necessary. Haven't had to do that yet after making almost every other year to the San Juans since 80. Have set up 3 other C25's using the boom with a 3/8 bolt as a pin at the base of the mast and a hole at the outer end of the boom and the ring and the bridle. Lowering is reverse and is easier. Oh yes, what also went into the thinking was yes I could move up to the C25 if I could handle it by myself but with help it is better and safer.

Made some quick release fittings but that is another story.

Jim Sweet #1490

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2004 : 15:47:49

Great help all. The chainplate attachment had me scratching my head.

Thanks a bunch.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2004 : 23:02:49

I'm an old gin pole and A frame single handed mast raiser. boy can you hear Gabby Hayes saying that.

OK I really want to stress the importance of using heavy steel tubing and not light guage conduit. There is hardly a bigger disaster on a sailboat than having the mast come crashing down. Just as the mast it self has compression forces that are transfered to the keel by a compression post, so the lever arm force of the mast while being raised is transfered to the A frame. There is a lot of force that the tubing must bear. Should they let go someone could be seriously injured and your boat could be damaged. The tendancy is for the legs of the A frame to bow outward or collapse to one side.

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 00:13:56

Best way to step your mast is with 5 guys and a 12 pack of ice cold Coors Light...makes things to simple! :)

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Steven Fesler
1st Mate

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29 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 08:15:59

I have to agree with John V. I never built an A frame til last spring but the whole time I've heard about them, a little voice has been saying, "conduit is NOT structural steel and could fold up under the loads involved with raising a mast". In particular, the flattened out parts. I built mine out of 1-1/4 square tubing with 3/16 steel strap for the tabs on the ends. It works so good I can hardly believe it. Now if I could just sort out which orders from the little voice in my head to follow, and which not to.

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 14:43:05

Used my A-frame for the first time last weekend. Worked beautifully and the mast came down nice and gentle however I did learn one thing and I hope I didn't do major damage.

The pictures in the tips section show a nice tall contraption for catching the mast high at the stern as it comes down. I had created one but was under the misconception that is was somehow to be used for trailering which didn't make much sense to me.

Now I understand that is is for keeping the mast up temporarily while you remove the pin at the bottom of the mast. I may have inadvertently done some damage when the mast contacted with the top of the cabin and then with lever force tried to raise the base of the mast with the pin still in. I noticed that two of the four bolts(screws?) holding down the plate under the mast (what's the technical term?) were now raised between a quarter and a half inch from deck level suggesting something had either stripped or pulled through. Didn't get a chance to investigate further as my help had to leave.

Anyone know how these bolts are connected inside the cabin and whether I'm likely to have a major problem from this?

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 17:20:38

Hi Tom,
My mast base is connected with lag bolts. If yours is the same, you can unscrew them, fill the holes with epoxy and redrill the holes and screw the lag bolts back in. That's what I did. Another method some people have used succesfully, is to wax the lag bolt threads and embed them in the epoxy. When it sets up, you can unscrew them, put sealant on the bottom of the mast base, position it, and thread the lag bolts right into their custom threaded holes.

If the base is held with true bolts, you should be able to see the ends sticking through the cabin ceiling around the compression post and assess any damage there.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 17:32:32

... Anyone know how these bolts are connected inside the cabin and whether I'm likely to have a major problem from this? - Tom

Hi Tom,

I'll reiterate what John said, except that on my boat four large flat-head screws hold down the mast tabernacle instead of lag bolts.

My mast tabernacle came loose once, too ... I found out it was because of some dry rot at the base of the mast. You can check for dry rot by tapping with a small mallet or the end of a screwdriver ... the area of any dry rot produces a distinctly different sound.

I drilled some small holes and treated the area under the tabernacle with Git Rot, filled the screw holes with epoxy (as John did), and that fixed it ... after bedding the tabernacle with 3M-4200 and screwing it back in place, it is as stout as ever.

Unless you find a lot of dry rot, it should be a pretty simple fix ... good luck!

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 18:33:30

I imagine in the long run that bolts/screws while underway really only keep the mast from sliding side to side. Really is not a lot of stress vertically unless you make my mistake when lowering/raising the mast.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 11:53:58

I must agree with the above warnings. I tried the A frame a few years ago and it was a scary experience. Using aluminum tubing is unsafe. Instead of an A frame we drop the mast aft and catch it with a homemade mastup. Both forward lower shrouds are connected to lines and routed
via the cabin top organizers, clutches and winches and are continually adjusted as the mast is
lowered/raised. The line is initially run through blocks at about the position of the nearest stanchion to them. You can use either the Genoa track or a stanchion base there. The object is
to have the imaginary line of the pivot point of the mast base pass thru the shroud. When this is done one has positive control of the lateral movement of the mast. Boom or spin pole may be used for gin pole and the mainsheet tackle used for lowering. Control lines are also attached to the outer end of the gin pole to keep it perpendicular to the mast and are also adjusted during the operation. Take it slow and easy. One person can do it, but it takes some time to rig up.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 12:10:01

I must agree with the above warnings. I tried the A frame a few years ago and it was a scary experience. - Paul

Hi Paul,

I was wondering ... do you have a tall rig, or a standard rig?

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dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 12:39:54

if you have a tall rig.
is still acceptable to use conduit or should you go to a heavier material?
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
about to go hard at carlyle lake
in southern illinois

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 13:26:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dave holtgrave
 if you have a tall rig.
is still acceptable to use conduit or should you go to a heavier material?
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
about to go hard at carlyle lake
in southern illinois
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If I were going to rig something I would take a long look at the trailer based system on the 250 trailers.

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 13:40:59

Hi Paul,

I was wondering ... do you have a tall rig, or a standard rig?

I have a FKSR.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 15:38:11

I don't know what I was thinking - lag bolts

. Buzz is correct, they're flathead screws. The rest of the info is accurate, I'm fairly sure

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 20:07:55

Just posted link to pics of stepping system I made (general forum). The A-frame is from a steel company and I think it's basically galv water pipe. Heavy but sturdy. Worked great. Started to try conduit but when the hairs on the back of your neck start raising, you listen. The results from mis-calculating the stress were too great. Rides while trailering and all the rest too....

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dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2004 : 10:07:41

hey scooter
what size pipe was it? diameter and length.
what was your fastening at the side stays?
was the rest of your procedures same as a conduit a frame?
thanks
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tf

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2004 : 10:45:53

Pipe was 3/4 X 21 GA TC Pipe S40 A53 A120 (whatever all that means). Basically 3/4 galvanized water pipe. Came with threaded ends. The supply place only sold stock in 20 ft lengths. They charged 50 cents per cut and they cut it in half for me. There might be heavier grade rigid conduit that would work but I couldn't find any in time to launch this year.

I torched the ends and hammered like a blacksmith to flatten the ends. It was tough stuff. I thought the torch would affect the galvanizing but I saw no affect. Never got it that hot though. Didn't have a real hot torch. Just didn't want to hammer cold pipe. I did split one end down the length while flattening(first one). I had plenty left over to re-do. Also I made the mistake of flattening down the "seam". That's what split. Made sure the seam was in middle of flattened part. Also, it doesn't need to be "completely" flat.

As far as length of the a-frame. I simply built the chain plate pieces then mounted one end of the pipe at the chainplate. I left the remaining pipe stick out and cris-cross over the bow. I marked where to cut, flatten, and "angle". Removed everything and started hammering and drilling. I left a "little" play in the chainplate and the top of the a-frame to help avoid binding.

The rest is exactly as the plans in the trail above. (Thanks everyone). I used cutoffs from the rigid conduit I originally tried. It works fine. That small a piece and the stresses (I thought) should handle it and I saw no stress.

The a-frame is a little heavy to manage but not bad. I don't think it will ever bend. The weight also helps "some" with countering the weight of the mast. Not enough to notice though. (like I would know).

Also realize that I only plan to launch/trailer it twice a year (in Spring and out Fall). Unless a hurricane comes along.

If you look at the roller support I made, I can put the roller pretty high if I want to. I only go up about 1/3 the height I have available. Those pics show it all the way down. I stepped it with it up about another 2 ft +/-. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to counter balance that much mast if I went too high. Thought I might not get the mast end onto the base. Turns out I had no problem. I may go higher. Then I could "almost" lift the mast the rest of the way. With a winch, though, why muscle it? It went up so easy I was wondering if I missed something.

Also the weight and stresses of the roller support and mast are on the cleats.

If I really wanted to get fancy I could modify the roller support to "give" if I ever "dropped" the mast. This would save stressing the cleats and the mast. Have to think about that one..... Correct gauge steel? Sacrificial wood piece? Shock absorbers? Naaughh. Designing/building it would take away from sailing.

Probably do it after I drop it the first time.

Edited by - on

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