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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing keel - design flaw, or old wives' tale?

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/05/2004 : 15:33:02

Hi everyone,

We've had PLENTY of info on the Forum regarding swing keels, and here is a related issue that has really been bugging me ... I haven't been able to make sense of it, so I thought I'd pose the question here and see what y'all think.

I'm sure we'd all agree, Frank Butler and the designers at Catalina are no dummies. Did they really design a boat that will sink if you pull off the keel cable's rubber hose while the boat is in the water

I looked in the two C-25 manuals and the parts manual, and I didn't see any warning like that ... where is it written? Did I miss it? Does it say something to that effect in the CD manual? ('Can't check it ... mine is on my boat at the moment.)

Here is a link to the parts manual showing the swing keel assembly: [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/manbro/pictures/pc13.gif"]swing keel assembly[/url]

From that diagram there doesn't seem to be any way to tell if the top of the bronze pipe is above or below the waterline ... which is it

It seems to me that (1) if the bronze pipe is below the waterline, then yes, the boat will sink if you take the rubber hose off, or (2) if the top of the bronze pipe is above the waterline, then the notion that you'll sink your boat if you take that hose off is nothing more than an old wives' tale.

Why would the designers put the top of that bronze pipe below the waterline? It seems like an easy thing to simply make it longer so there isn't a danger of sinking without that rubber hose firmly clamped/caulked in place. In fact, has anyone ever considered adding an extension to that bronze pipe? 'Seems like it would be fairly easy to do.

Am I missing something here

edit: 'changed "brass" to "bronze"

Buzz Maring

~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68
Lake Dallas, TX

Edited by - Buzz Maring on 10/05/2004 15:55:04

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2004 : 20:05:57

I do not have my copy of the Cat direct C25 handbook in front of me, but have a VERY strong recollection of the statement that the boat will sink if the hose is removed in the water, contained in the section dealing with winch wire replacement. I can tell you that on my boat, I am absolutely convinced the top of the hull fitting is below the load waterline level. As to actually SINKING, I suppose that depends on how fast you can bail. See Dike, Dutch boy, etc. God bless, fair winds, ron Orion #2343 SW FL

Edited by - on

Greg S
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2004 : 22:07:00

In the Catalina Direct Handbook under Upgrades and Refit
on page 4.60 it states in bold leters Caution: Don't remove the keel
hose with the boat in the water. It will sink

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2004 : 17:14:26

Seems like Catalian would have had a warning like that in the original owners manual. I don't recall seeing it in there either.
Has anyone called catalina to ask them?
Has anyone tried it (removing the rubber hose while afloat)?

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2004 : 21:29:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Has anyone tried it (removing the rubber hose while afloat)?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think this person might have tried it....

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2004 : 21:44:18

When I replaced the cable, winch, and turning ball on #1205 last year, I tried to determine the actual static water level in the cable hose, and as best as I could tell, from poking a stick down there and comparing the watermark against the hose, it appears that the waterline was AT LEAST 2" above the top of the bronze pipe. Now, that doesn't preclude the possibility that someone else's boat may have had the bronze pipe installed at a greater height above the hull surface, such that the static water line might be below the top of the pipe, but I wouldn't want to take a chance! If you can't get access to the lower cable fitting with the boat on the trailer, I suggest that the easiest way to go might be the way I did it: Replace the hose and turning ball with the boat out of the water - you will have to unroll all the cable from the winch to do this, of course - then launch the boat, lower the keel, and replace the cable by dropping the old one through the hose and out, and threading in the new cable from underneath, using a scuba diver. This is also a good time to replace the winch if you need to. New cable $49 + new winch $150 + new turning ball $15 + new hose $12, the feeling of relief of knowing that your keel hardware is all new: "priceless".

Edited by - lcharlot on 10/07/2004 08:53:23

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2004 : 13:12:33

I would not call it a design flaw, the removable hose allows the inspection and replacement of the turning ball which has to be in the right place to bear the transfered weight of the keel as it is being lowered or raised.

The warning is very prominant in the keel re-fit kits liturature.
I have a 77 original owners manual and I believe the caution is in there as well. I'll check and edit this message if this is not true.

It seems to me that the swing keel issue is really a non issue. The boats have a lot of other plumbing with hoses clamped below the waterline and we are not worried about removing them in the water. You and I know better. "yachtsmen" who make that mistake may find themselves in line for a Darwin Award.

OK OK yes I know that they have shut off valves, but on Nin Bimash we have properly sized bung hole plugs including a big one for the keel cable trunk. Though the cable will not allow a complete seal, the soft poplar will seat itself enough to prevent all but a trickle.
( I have not tried this in the water but did the sizing the last time I did a keel re-fit) Don't forget where you stow the rubber hammer. don't use a metal hammer as it might split the peg.

Have any of you swingers noticed that when you use a hard reverse, water comes up the pipe and spills on the aft cushion? This also happens when you launch. A channel of air gets trapped in the keel trunk and groove. When you are on the ramp, it is all pushed forward but when you lower the keel for the first time it displaces all that air which finds the keel slot and travels aft till it bubbles up the tube bringing a few cups of water along.

Edited by - John V. on 10/07/2004 13:18:13

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2004 : 13:20:33

Steve,

I almost choked on a mouthful of water when I saw your post!

Too funny, but amazingly accurate. Be sure to replace the cable hose and clamps on a regular basis folks!

Clif

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2004 : 13:59:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Have any of you swingers noticed that when you use a hard reverse, water comes up the pipe and spills on the aft cushion? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You know, I have found that cushion to be wet and surmised it had to have come from the hose. However, being in the cockpit and not in the cabin when underway, I wasn't sure which particular motion or direction was causing it to happen. Thought maybe heeling too much was causing it but that was only for lack of another explanation. Thanks for clearing that up. Any reason not to stick a rag in the hose - as long as I remember to remove it before turning the winch?

Steve

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2004 : 14:11:02

I guess a rag wouldn't hurt, perhaps you could attach one of those aircraft tags "remove before flight" so you wouldn't lower the keel with the rag in the hole. It could be quite a mess if the rag got pulled into and jammed on the turning ball. Then you really would need to pull the hose.....on the hard of course.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2004 : 14:16:42

I'm one of those foolhardy folks without an available trailer. The last thing I want to do is something stupid necessitating a haulout.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2004 : 10:30:27

Here's one way to reduce, if not eliminate, the water that spurts up the hose and gets the cushions wet: Buy a PVC pipe cap that is just smaller than the inside diameter of the hose. If I remember correctly, that is pipe size 1-1/2". Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of the pipe cap. Detach the cable from the winch and thread the cable through the hole in the pipe cap. Smear a little 5200 around the cap and insert it into the end of the hose, then clamp it with a hose clamp. Reattach the cable to the winch. Now, there is only the tiny gap between the cable and the 1/4" hole in the cap for water to squirt through, and you could even catch this by laying a piece of sponge on top of the pipe cap. Just remember to remove the sponge before cranking up the cable, so it doesn't get pulled into the winch. I actually did this at the last cable replacement on #1205, and it seems to work pretty good. I suppose that the cable would gradually enlarge the hole in the cap, but I think it would last as least as long as the recommended cable replacement interval. And these caps cost no more than $1.00 at Home Depot.

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2004 : 12:03:07

Pipecap sounds like a GREAT idea. Only question I have is: does the angle of entry (or deflection) on the wire change any as it is wound up to the winch? If so, there would be (a) wear on the pipe cap (Likely incidental) and (b) the prospect that the wire might want to try to bend the hose as it changes direction, thereby possibly pulling the hose off the nipple. I have long been of the opinion that the thruhull arrangement for the wire could be better thought out. For example, the Tartan 27, and many other centerboarders, have centerboard pennant tubes that enter the hull above the waterline, Cheers, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2004 : 12:27:51

I have never seen any water in the area of my tube under any conditions. I do not ramp launch.

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John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2004 : 13:13:13

I think the flexibility of the riser is the reason it is there. I know that mine moves a bit as I haul in the keel. The cap sounds like a good Idea. On several occaisons this summer wind and current required a faster than usual approach to the dock. That required a harder reverse than usual, and that is when I would kick a lot of bubbles into the keel slot.

Frank you are probably benefiting from splashing while level. I think it is ramp angle that traps air in the trunk so that as you lower the keel the air is forced aft. Do you extend your keel while in the slings and before splash, if so there would be little void where air could hide.

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2004 : 16:24:52

John, i like the idea of wooden plugs for emergencies. Any idea what size I need? Three thru-hulls (besides the keel cable): galley sink, waste valve, and head seawater intake. My hull # is 5172.

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2004 : 01:28:24

As an emergency plug for the cable thruhull, I have plasticine modeling clay. It doesn't dry out and water doesn't dissolve it (its oil based).

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John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2004 : 08:15:36

West marine sells bags of them in a variety of sizes. $7 for a bag of about 8 plugs is what I recall. They don't come with a hole drilled through the wide end. I reccomend that you do that so you can tie the proper plug to each through hull. That way it is right where you need it. We all know what begins to happen during an emergency. You can make some pretty dumb mistakes while in a panic. Having the plugs handy gives you a little room to breath while your crew looks for the hammer.

speaking of emergency gear. I have put together several hull patches made of 1/4 ply with old mouse pads. each one comes in two halves with a carriage bolt and wing nut through the center. should you need to stop water from coming in through an impact hole, (this requires one of the crew to get in the water) the two halves can be bolted together with the hull sandwiched in between. The mouse pad acts as a seal.

I have never had to use one and hope that I never do. We keep a good watch but there are still large deadheads that remain submerged.

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