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new owner cat 25 1982 swing keel

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gerdo
Navigator

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107 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/14/2002 : 14:34:11

just bought first boat. Will launch 4/30/02. have been reading all I can. One question: what is the advised position of swing keel (up or fully down) while at dock?

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Gary
1st Mate

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58 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 14:56:29

Congrats! Hope you enjoy your "New" boat. There's been much discussion about swing keels. Catalina recommends keeping the keep up at the dock to minimize corrosion of the cable. Of course if the keel is down it can't fall with possibly catastrophic results. I like the keel down if the boat is in the water as long as there's sufficient depth. However, I compromise and crank it up about 10 turns to share some of the weight between the cable and keel pivot pin. When out sailing I keep the keel all the way down, but take the slack out of the cable so I can hear it hum and reduce some of the pressure on the back of the keel trunk. Hope this helps.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 15:32:06

I would say that it would depend on the conditions where you are mooring. If the water is not very deep you may want to leave it up so as not to hit bottom. Also, if you experience a seiche, like we had last week in western Lake Erie, the water level could drop a few feet in a matter of hours leaving you high and dry. This may be disastrous with a swing keel boat. I remember one time driving into the marina and most of the fixed keel sticks were slanted due to them sitting on the bottom due to this phenomenom. Additionally, if the area is weedy, then you might want to leave it up so seaweed doesn't get wrapped around the cable. It is no fun diving overboard to get seaweed off of the cable so you can crank up the keel. If there is a lot of wake activity at your mooring that rocks your boat, you may want to raise the keel to prevent undo wear to the pivot assembly. Question, if you leave the cable down constantly, would you get algae/scum growth on the 6 or 7 ft of cable? And if so, when you eventually cranked it up, would that growth now be wrapped around the winch drum rotting and stinking up the inside of the boat???

I'm sure there are many other things to consider, and that is why I sold my swinger and got myself FIXED! My head hurt from thinking so much.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 03/14/2002 18:17:09

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 15:51:49

The only time we raise the keel is (1) when water depths dictate it and (2) when we pull the boat at end of season. Congrats on your purchase!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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gerdo
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107 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2002 : 16:33:54

thanks to all of you.

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Ken Cave
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 00:10:13

If you have room under your boat, keep the keel down all the way, as it will be snug as a bug in the trunk-and not rocking and rolling (and thumping against the trunk) if you are part way up!

If you have a problem of tides leaving you in the mud, then crank it up all the way. You will stand a chance of losing the cable and having the swing keel bang against the trunk causing major damage, but you will not have damage on the trunk due to the rocking of your boat with the keel in the mud!

Yup- a catch 22 answer!

Ken Cave

Ken Cave

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 08:02:14

Also note, though the damage caused by the keel dropping is major, the occurence of such is rather rare. I know those who have had this happen may opt to disagree with me, but in the grand scheme of things the percentage is rather low. We had the original cable on our boat for 22 years. (we've only owned it for 4 or 5 now and its been changed). Keep the keel down unless your geographical location and depth prohibits it. check the cable before and after every season and take a peek at it on the winch once or twice a season.

You should be looking for kinks or meathooks when you are inspecting it.

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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n/a
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26 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 12:25:18

As the owner of a fixed keel C25 the problems engendered by swing keels are completely outside my experience, (compounded by the fact that I have never even been on a C25 with a swing keel). However, the horror stories I have read on this forum concerning the level of damage that can be caused by a falling keel give me severe pause. Is there not (or should there not) be some way to lock the keel in the "up" position such that the strain can be taken off the cable? For example, could a horizontal, lateral hole be drilled through the trunk and the keel through which a heavy duty bolt could be slipped when the boat is at anchor? Or could some sort of swivelling hook and hanger be devised to restrain the keel?

My examples may be totally unrealistic based on the construction of the trunk, the available distance above the water line, etc., but my question is, is there some practical, mechanical method to hold the keel in position and prevent a catastrophic failure should the cable part while the keel is "up"?

George Seaborn C25 #1190

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 13:27:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

My examples may be totally unrealistic based on the construction of the trunk, the available distance above the water line, etc., but my question is, is there some practical, mechanical method to hold the keel in position and prevent a catastrophic failure should the cable part while the keel is "up"?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think maybe prayer may be the first step. I don't think the waterline allows for your locking mechanism. Yes the results can be catastrophic to say the least, but the Percentages, (at least up until this point) are in your favor. Know the area you will be sailing (depth). Keep the keel down while sailing (in fresh water all the time if possible). Inspect the cable and fittings regularly. and replace every 3 to 5 years regardless.

Other than that....pray. If you aren't religious, drink...and toast the cable...

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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c25sailor
Past Commodore

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USA
138 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 14:06:24

Gerdo- Congrats on your 82 swinger (hey, that's me, too). I agree with the advice to leave it down, if you can. Mine is slipped for the season and despite the low Lake levels, there's plenty of clearance.

It's a lower it and forget it kind of thing with me (OK, Duane, so I pray a little, too <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Ed Jakubas
Lucyna II
1982 TR/SK #2801
<img src="http://home.attbi.com/~c25sailor/images/RailwashProfile.jpg" border=0>

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 14:15:41

In response to George Seaborn,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... is there some practical, mechanical method to hold the keel in position ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The short answer appears to be, "No".

The entire swing keel and trunk are below the LWL (Load Water Line). That may not be precisely true, but it's close enough for this discussion. The very tip top of the forward two feet of the keel trunk may be above the static waterline in a lightly loaded boat floating in still water.

The only swing keel locking mechanism I've seen in boats this size is on a Parker Dawson 26. Even there, the swing keel is maybe 1,200# and not 1,500#. Also the Parker Dawson keel hangs straight down in the lowered position (looks like a dagger board), which is the only position it can be locked in. The point of that lock is probably to prevent the keel retracting uncontrolably in the event of a severe knockdown or roll (these were promoted as off-shore boats). That keel lock consists of a large stainless steel dead bolt (maybe 3/4" or more in dia.) that is installed vertically through a heavily reinforced spot in the top of the keel trunk, and seats in a matching blind hole in the head of the keel casting. I think that the head of the Parker Dawson swing keel has a larger radius (relative to the pivot point) than a C-25, thus giving that deadbolt pin more mechanical advantage to resist keel pivoting forces. Also, in addition to being lighter, the Parker Dawson keel is shorter, and not bottom-loaded like the reverse-tapered swing keel in a C-25.

In the Catalina 25 design, the lower end of the extended keel angles aft at about 45 degrees. This means that a lock-down mechanism (in a 180 degree roll-over) would have to resist very high torque (or, at the lock pin, shear) forces. In the case of trying to lock a swing keel in the up position using that method (deadbolt near the keel head), the forces would be even higher.

Also, for those of you not familiar with the underwater aspects of the C-25 swing keel system, only about 1/4 of the keel retracts into the trunk. The rest of the raised keel hangs down, forming sort of a 1-1/2 foot deep by 7 foot long shallow keel.

As for <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... the horror stories I have read on this forum ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Those stories represent a very small minority of the swing keel equipped C-25s out there. Bear in mind that none of us bother to report that our swing keels have made it though another day without sinking our boat.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> However, when a swing keel does develop problems, it's quite natural for the owner to mention it here, and to seek sympathy and advice. (That's what we're here for, right?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>)

As for: <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... prevent a catastrophic failure should the cable part ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>The solution to that is as simple as understanding the nature of swing keel systems, and correctly performing timely preventative maintenance, a topic which you will see discussed here far more frequently than serious swing keel failures.

As for the original topic of this thread, I agree with those who suggest leaving the swing keel as far down as practical without it banging on the bottom or getting stuck in the muck. The depth of the shallow water where I dock my boat fluctuates up to several inches a day. Before leaving my boat, I let the keel down until it touches bottom, and then crank it up maybe half a dozen turns. Remember to leave enough room under the keel to accomodate tides, the wakes of passing power boats, and waves kicked up by rough weather.

-- Leon Sisson

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mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2002 : 23:40:55

I've had two Venures with swing keels. Granted, they are not nearly as heavy as the Cat 25. Both had provision for lock down bolts through the top of the keel when pivoted into the trunk. A common problem with this locking proceedure was the eventual elongation of the bolt hole through the fiberglass due to the keel bumping the bottom. Also, the bolt had to be in place while the keel is positioned up under the boat to avoid taking in water through the hole. Lowering the keel onto the inserted bolt further caused elongation problems with the hole. The friction arrangement on the Cat 22 supposedly solves this problem but seemed to creat others in the process. The friction arrangement on the Cat 22 would not be effective on the heavy Cat 25 keel (550# vs. 1500#)

Mike Roetter

'83 SK SR

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n/a
deleted

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2002 : 12:33:21

Hi Duane, Leon and Mike

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my simple minded "solution". I didn't realize that the keel trunk is almost totally below the water line, (but it makes sense now that I stop and think about it), and I must agree with all of you that poking a hole in the bottom of a boat is probably not a good solution to any problem. Oh well, it SEEMED like a good idea at the time; guess it proves that if you come up with a simple solution to a complex problem, you probably don't have all the facts of the problem.

Thanks again, guys,

George Seaborn C25 #1190

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Don Hood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/18/2002 : 22:21:32

Congrats on your new boat! We have had our 1980 for two years and we are in fresh water so we leave it down all the time. I feel it is more stable and makes for less wear and tear on the operating system. Our slip is very protected and is in 12-15 feet of water so it is fine. Moving 1500#'s when not necessary does not seem to be a good idea. As long as you are in fresh water and clear of mud and plants getting into the cable, I vote to leave it down.

My wife and I really enjoy our boat, may you do the dame.

Fair winds,

Don on Namaste' #1929

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snowbird
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2002 : 23:13:53

Well, I'll also add my congrats as we have had our 25 since 79 and its swing keel cable has only been replaced once because it was pinched while being not all the way up when pulled onto the trailer. Have used boat in both fresh and salt water and have removed keel three times to sand blast and replace large pieces of body putty cavities that fell out after being in the San Juans for a month and faired the keel for returning it to original shape. Keep the keel down except for grounding and loading on trailer. Reduce bumping by glueing carpeting on top section which goes up into keel pocket when in down position. I found that by slacking cable reduced wear on brass roller cable guide in cable quide and quiets hum. Suggestions are of my experiences and sailing adventures. Good sailing.

Jim Sweet

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