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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/30/2004 : 11:36:13

Can't resist putting this artwork up....it could be the last (big) airpline I fly....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 12/30/2004 11:37:41

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 11:49:42

She's a beauty, but only one engine? Must be exciting at takeoffs & landings.

Edited by - Jeff McK on 12/30/2004 11:50:22

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 12:00:43

As a former C250 pilot you should be used to maneuvering with one, off center, engine.

Why would you say this could be the last big one? You're far from retirement? Sailing that C42 off into the sunset already?

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 12:28:41

What is it anyway? I thought only Airbus made upturned wingtips.

Why not one engine? I guess the mounting would have to bear a LOT of thrust. They approve 767's for trans-ocean with two engines based on reliability although one engine would not get you home if the other one failed mid-ocean.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:00:00

I recently flew on Boeing's demo aircraft for the Navy P-3 replacement. It is a 737-800 variant. At max takeoff weight and one engine pulled to idle, the aircraft climbed way better than my trusty P-3 with all 4 engines running! I have a little more respect for the 2 engine jobs now. BTW boeing got the contract.

Tom.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:03:08

IMHO that is a new Boeing 7e7 or what ever the number is, I hope you get to Capt that Oscar and PLEASE report on this forum your work-up to that first flight, if we are all still here.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:08:53

Nadi, I have flown twice to Hawaii on 767-300 from Chicago non-stop and back. Never had a doubt it would at least maintain level flight on one engine. OSCAR comment on this because I'm going back next fall.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:50:07

It is indeed the Boeing 7E7 "Dreamliner"....has not flown, in fact does not even exist yet. Continentals first copy to be delivered 2009. At that point I'll have eight years left.

OK, since there is interest, I'll do the abbreviated two engine operations primer. Many of these priciples apply to our boats....rudders are rudders, thrust is thrust.

Picture your outboard on a mount about ten feet off the side of the boat.....without turning the outboard, gunning it would only produce one result, boat going in circles. Now have two of them, one on each side, get up to speed, and then shut one down. If there's enough water going over the rudder, you would be able to counteract the asymmetrical thrust, and you would be able to steer a straight line.

Conversely, an aircraft that is flying at a minimum speed, or above, will have enough air flowing over the rudder (the vertical thing on the tail) to counteract the asymmetrical thrust resulting from and engine failure. All aircraft are certified to, at maximum gross takeoff weight, start the takeoff roll with all engines, accellerate to the minimum safe flying speed, (generally somewhere in the 130-160 knot range) right then have one engine fail, and continue the take off and clear predetermined obstacles (the clear path), then climb out, and fly around on the remaining engine(s). In the case of a two engine airplane thus a loss of 50% of the thrust, and a very large single engine airplane. This all assuming a runway, which is long enough to acellerate and then stop if the engine failure occurs right before reaching the safe flying speed. Shorter runways result in weight restrictions. Lighter airplane, quicker accelleration to lower safe flying speed.....

As far as going to Hawai, that is the realm of ETOPS. (Extended twin operations). This occurs anytime you venture more than one hour from a suitable airport. (Which does not have to be over water, Northern Canada for instance...) Then the aircraft will need to have increased redundancy (the dealer installed ETOPS package, not included in the sticker price) and airline/crews need to be certified for said operations as well. Certification can be for 120 minutes, 138, 180 etc.. Anytime you enter into ETOPS operations, you carry enough fuel to be able to lose an engine and then proceed to a suitable airport, and land in suitable weather conditions. Keeping track of all these "alternates" keeps us quite entertained on overseas flights (Goosebay/Gander/Sondrestromfjord/Keflavik/Azores just to name a few in the Atlantic theater).....To date no engine failure in ETOPS operations has resulted in hull loss. (Euphemism for crash).

Of course a four engine airplane only loses 25% of it's thrust with the failure of an engine, but it's twice as much "installation, and maintenance" (Imagine four engines on your retirement trawler instead of two) Two engine transport category aircraft did not become possible untill engines became powerfull enough to be able to push the airplane around just by themselves The Boeing 777, which is a very large "twin" has GE engines that produce almost 100.000 pounds of thrust each. If you take the wings off the 737, you can stick the fuselage through the cowling of the 777 engine.

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 12/30/2004 22:10:36

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 15:15:17

Of course this assumes Continental is still in operation then. The way airlines file for bankruptcy these days you can't be sure.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 15:48:56

Thanks for the flyby Oscar...reminds me of my dads discourses on flight...though he flew Waco Battleaxes Ax 17's and such...WW1 fighter..he would have delighted to read your post.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 15:51:30

How come that plane doesn't have roof racks. How do you carry your Kayak?

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 15:55:44

Oscar,
Very good way to describe what we in the Navy call VMC GRND, VMC air, Decision, and Refusal speeds! Forget the worries about Continental, Be worried for Boeing. That is one company we need in the US. Our p-3's are going on 40 yrs old and the replacement is only 8 yrs away!

Tom.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 16:01:08

"Sondrestromfjord"
A Canadian Pacific plane (a Super-Constellation) that I was on landed there in 1960 to refuel on it's way to Edmonton from Schiphol . Is it still a NATO base?
BTW - we lost an engine on takeoff from Schiphol and had to dump fuel for 4 hrs over the Zuider Zee before returning...but that's another story!
Derek

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 16:16:07

Thanks Oscar, next time I'll ask instead of spouting off

. You know the saying: Little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Pirean Spring (Alexander Pope).

Still hard to fathom a single engine pushing a 777 off the ground. Next time I fly to eastern Asia, I'll check to to make sure we are still friendly with the Russians

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 The Boeing 777, which is a very large "twin" has GE engines that produce almost 100.000 pounds of thrust each. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 19:41:18

So, what'd they say about it over on the C42 forum? (Sorry, couldn't resist the jab.

)

Of the current Boeing fleet, what is the 7E7 comparable to in size? 767?

Steve

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 20:03:20

Y'all can tour Boeing Wichita while you are here at Nationals, we will build a significant portion of the Dreamliner.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 21:51:11

Please tell me the 7E7 has two engines and its just the angle of the mock up hiding the second one! For some reason an asymetrical aircraft just doesn't seem copesetic.

(edit) Sorry Oscar, I knew what you meant. No slack around here!

Edited by - Charlie Vick on 12/30/2004 22:19:43

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 22:21:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 Does that mean if you lose two engines you lose 150% thrust?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...in other words, 50% reverse thrust. I always wondered how far you could drive one of those things backward.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2004 : 22:23:06

Nice catch Charlie...it's corrected. Yes, it's a twin. Sizewise I think it's about to hold 200 or so. It's meant to go to medium to smaller long distance cities (range is to be some butt numbing number....high teens, ie hours)...I no longer post on the 42 site.

.Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 07:23:00

So Oscar,
What about all this stuff we are hearing on the news about lasers being shown in the cockpit. I rarely trust the news people to get a story right. (ie. not a lot of personal bias slanting the story)

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 12:06:06

Haven't heard anything through official channels, (including our super paranoid union security freak) which means it's not a clear and present danger. Would have to be quite a laser to wake me up anyway.....

Seriously, to really bug me it would have to be in my face, which is tough to do from the ground. If I see something out of the corner of my eyes, I'll have to suppress the urge to look directly at it. I've done that flying over laser shows....(the ignoring part).... I don't see any real problem here, unless someone is practising with a guidance system, but I seriously doubt that.

Oscar, celebrating New Years in one of the finest LaQuinta hotels..(Orlando)...(lights out by eight...)

Edited by - Oscar on 12/31/2004 12:09:43

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 12:25:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Oscar, celebrating New Years in one of the finest LaQuinta hotels..(Orlando)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

LaQuinta: Spanish for "Behind Denny's."

(I stay at 'em a lot and am a member of their Returns Club, so I'm not makin' fun of your choices Oscar.)

Steve

Edited by - Lightnup on 12/31/2004 15:46:23

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 16:58:46

[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=806&item=6502353532&rd=1"]Dreamliner[/url]
Now you can have your very own 7E7 Dreamliner.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 17:13:05

Bonus: It looks like BOTH engines are installed on the model!

Edited by - Jeff McK on 12/31/2004 20:34:07

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 17:34:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm not makin' fun of your choices Oscar<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not my choice....I'm working a trip. Got in from Newark at noon, tomorrow 9 am back to Newark, sit around for three hours, then back to Orlando, then back to Newark, done at 8pm. Just another day at the office.....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 12/31/2004 17:35:26

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 21:21:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 ...Got in from Newark at noon, tomorrow 9 am back to Newark, sit around for three hours, then back to Orlando, then back to Newark, done at 8pm...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sounds like you have planes full of screamers on that trip, Oscar... Fortunately, you get to sit in the nose, away from the mayhem.

Edited by - on

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