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Winter projects/block size

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ct95949
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Aruba
300 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/31/2004 : 16:29:53

Projects for this winter:

Install Harken 00AL furling unit;Catalina Direct bow stem/anchor roller;all 1/4" rope halyards;remove all obsolete hardware off deck filling holes with epoxy and gelcoat.Install two Harken triple deck organizers;Harken air blocks at new mast base plate,at 1st and 2nd reef cringles,cunningham cringle and spin. halyard at masthead.New halyard sheaves at masthead;replace all old 3/8" control line with 1/4";relocate port cabin top winch;install 2nd triple rope clutch;traveler control cleats;new keel cable and ball;bottom paint and swim ladder.

All parts from West Marine and CD cost $2500.00 including misc.items.Saved almost $500.00 at WM year end 20% off sale,got Harken furler for $639.00

Now for the Big Question:Ordered 29mm Carbo Air blocks (single swivel)based on specs from Harkens catalog.They suggest a block series for boats 22'-28' that have a working load of about 300 lbs.- same for thier small boat deck organizer.They accept line up to 5/16" but look very small.Will they handle the loads placed by halyards,reef lines,etc. that are tensioned with a winch?

Thanks,Craig

'90 SR/WK #6017. PO of '79 SR/SK.

Edited by - ct95949 on 01/01/2005 16:01:03

Dave Laux
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Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 17:22:42

No. Dave

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 18:55:46

I did a lot of that list last winter, what traveler cleats are you thinking about? I am very happy with what I came up with.

I used Garhauer turning blocks at the mast base, I bought the mast plate and blocks directly from Garhauer.

I used the Harken double doubles for deck organizers, I strongly recommend that you do the same, they take less deck space and give you one more line option.

On the port side I have the two headsail halyards and the main outhaul in the clutches and the boom topping lift in the clam cleat.

Starboard has the two reef lines and the main halyard in the clutches and the cunningham in the cam cleat. I used the clam cleats for the topping lift and cunningham because they get trimmed, clutches would make that a hassle. Clutches art best for things that get set.

Edited by - on

ct95949
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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2004 : 19:45:58

Thanks Dave for not rambling on and on with a lenghty answer

Frank,I chose the three sheave organizer on each side because I have triple clutches on each side.I see your point about trim lines and so far I have two pivoting cam/blocks like Bill Holcomb's rig at the mast base.I can't stand clam cleats and there is not much space left for cams on the cabin top. If you are using the Harken small boat organizers they are rated at 300 lbs.swl which brings me back to my question-what is the load placed on a sheave with a 1/4" line tensioned by a small winch?Garhauer's smallest series of blocks are rated at 1150 lbs. and accept 3/8" line,is Harken incorrect in listing various blocks with a safe working load of 300 lbs.for our size boats ? Great pics,thanks Craig.

Edited by - ct95949 on 12/31/2004 20:32:46

Dave Laux
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Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 08:10:13

For any winch tightened line all of the stuff in the system should have
a working load of at least 1000 lbs. This is for small single speed
winches as the halyard winches on our boats. Otherwise you need to calc.
as appropriate. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 01/02/2005 08:10:44

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 11:29:41

Some IMHO commentary... your mileage may vary.

I really like the Garhauer blocks (and most of their other products)... it's not lightweight racing gear, but it is very sturdy and reasonably priced. Money spent on lightweight carbon-fiber equipment is best invested up at the masthead... a few extra ounces down at the mast base doesn't matter very much.

Craig wrote... "replace... old 3/8" control line with 1/4..."

Unless you splice bigger 'tails' on the line for 'handing' them... 1/4" control lines will eat you alive with the loadings on a C25... (too hard to hold onto... and hard on the hands).

One more comment... unless you buy the high-tech-low-stretch ($$$) stuff, 1/4" is pretty light for halyards on our boats... I'd go 5/16". The bucks-up kevlar & badger-hair line is mainly the province of racers.

Hey Dave, I reckon that's one of your boats for sale on Yachtworld ?

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/pl_search_results.jsp?cit=true&slim=quick&sm=3&is=false&type=%28Sail%29&man=dave&luom=126&fromLength=&toLength=&fromYear=&toYear=&currencyid=100&fromPrice=&toPrice=

Mind the URL wrap... probably easier to go to yachtworld and look for builder = 'Dave'

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 11:34:17

Craig,

Those blocks rated at 300lbs are generally used for things such as topping lifts, furling lines, lazy jacks, travellers, and other similar use control lines. Lines that are put on a winch might exceed the 300lb limit.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 12:31:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 ...I really like the Garhauer blocks (and most of their other products)... it's not lightweight racing gear, but it is very sturdy and reasonably priced...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I second Bruce's vote for Garhauer equipment. The prices are great(my genoa track cars were about half the cost of the nearest competitor) and their 10 year gaurantee is hard to beat.

Additionally, I like the way Garhauer blocks look...they have an artistic quality to them like sculpture.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 14:24:00

Craig
I have had no issues with my 1/4" halyards other than pure joy, the winch takes the strain and my hand is only tailing. 1/4" is the perfect size for me. I do sail with gloves but who wouldn't? I bought mine at layline, it is rated at 4800 lbs and was cheap.
You have not commented on the traveler cleat question, what are you planning?
My harken deck organizers are plenty strong for our boats, remember that the loads of the blocks at the base are higher than the loads of a routing sheave in a deck organizer. I also got them from Layline.

272 DECK ORG-SB STACKED 2 SHV

Description
Stacked two sheave

Sheave dia. (in)
1 1/2

Length (in)
5 1/16

Height (in)
1 9/16

Weight (oz)
7 1/2

Max. line dia. (in)
3/8

SWL/sheave (lb)
300

Breaking strength (lb)
2000

Fastener spacing length (in)
4 1/4

Fastener spacing width (in)
7/8

*#10 (5mm) FH fasteners

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 01/01/2005 14:43:00

ct95949
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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 15:46:36

Frank,I've been winching my 1/4" reef lines since I've had the boat and like you I've never had problems and usually wear gloves. I've tried several traveler cleat arrangements not liking any. This year I'll try the stanchion mounted cleats from CD which look a lot like the factory set-up. I want something simple that I can pull straight forward.

I had the same thought about about the organizer sheaves having less load then the mastbase blocks. Also the plastic Harken organizer looks a lot nicer than the aluminum Garhauer model.

I will however return the Harken 29mm blocks and get the Garhauers. Like Don said they look really good, have a stronger rating and are only $2 more.

One last question:

I know a lot of you guys have the mast mounted blocks with cams like Bill Holcombs. So far the only two models I can find are made by Harken with the big one having a swl of only 300lbs. I had not planned on winching the lines from these blocks but would like to be able to use my spin. halyard to hoist loads aboard, possibly with the winch. Any other alternatives?

Thanks, Craig

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 16:47:29

"I have had no issues with my 1/4" halyards other than pure joy..."

When Craig wrote about replacing all his "control lines" with 1/4" I translated that as meaning sheets, vang etc. I would not want to hand 1/4" sheets on a C25, gloves or no gloves.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
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Response Posted - 01/01/2005 : 22:17:43

Clam Beach,
Yes that is one of the boats that I built, actually designed and built
it. It was completed in 1985, and the original owner kept it until the
late nineties, sold to the guy that owns it now. I have since built a
42 foot trawler type motor vessel for the original owner. The trawler
is in North Carolina now leaving next week for the West Coast of
Florida for the winter. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 01/02/2005 08:13:20

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 11:42:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 "I have had no issues with my 1/4" halyards other than pure joy..."

When Craig wrote about replacing all his "control lines" with 1/4" I translated that as meaning sheets, vang etc. I would not want to hand 1/4" sheets on a C25, gloves or no gloves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are sure right about that!

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 12:51:14

I will stay with my 38" sheets for my 110% RF headsail(lots of wind).I am going to rig my 150% seperate from the furler and will replace those sheets with 1/4"-the 3/8" is too heavy in light air.

I'm still looking for info on the mast mounted blocks w/ cam cleats that Bill Holcomb has pictured in Tech Tips.Harken calls these pivoting exit block w/cam cleat, their 140 model has a swl of 300lbs.which I'm not sure is strong enough.I wanted to use these for light load non winched lines(topping lift,spin.halyard,etc.)but also liked the idea of using a long spin. halyard to hoist loads aboard possibly with a winch.Any thoughts?

Thanks,Craig

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 14:03:46

Craig, I do not like Bill's set up. Beyond the issue of protecting all of it during mast raising and lowering I find it hard to believe that the cleating and uncleating of those lines would be hassle free, that is based on years of using vangs. Long tails from distant cleats do not sound like a good idea to me. That is why I have clams and four sheaves per organizer. I have never used blocks like Bills but I do not want to mess with anything on the mast after I start sailing, (I am usually alone). Lines cleated at the halyard winches are easy to adjust and therefore get adjusted. However, if you are going to follow through with the mast mounted cleats I suggest you have another look at the photo above of my traveler cleat system. Those Spinlock cleats are used widely as boom mounted mainsheet block/cleats, I am sure they will do the job for you at least as well as the older Harken technology.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 14:08:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949
 

I had the same thought about about the organizer sheaves having less load then the mastbase blocks. Also the plastic Harken organizer looks a lot nicer than the aluminum Garhauer model.

I will however return the Harken 29mm blocks and get the Garhauers. Like Don said they look really good, have a stronger rating and are only $2 more.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Harken 272 is not plastic, It is machined aluminum. I would keep the Harken Air blocks to use as needed around the boat.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 16:00:43

Frank,it must be raining in Kansas-it is in California

If those are Spinlock power cleats in your traveler pic I wouldn't use them on them on the mast or anywhere out of reach.I had my halyards in them on the cabin top before I dicovered clutches.They would snap shut when trying to release and no I wasn't using a winch with them.

I thought one solution to my problem would be to move the vang out of a clutch and put in the spin. halyard routing it through the heavier blocks.I would then replace the fiddle on the vang with one with a cam but if I understand you correctly you have had problems with this?Do you adjust your vang a lot?

By the way Frank I may not agree with all your advise but I definitly appreciate all your thought provoking input.

Thanks,Craig

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 19:08:43

I am fat, old, poor, and have a slow boat; my skin is very thick and my advice questionable. That said, yes I do adjust my vang a lot, with our sorry butt travelers the vang is very important to sail shape. The topping lift is also important for sail shape in light air because our traveler position means we have a grip of line out when we are running and we have a super long boom to add weight. I moved my old 4:1 mainsheet to my vang position so I could adjust it more effectively. I ran it through the deck organizer at the beginning of the season when I had visions of single line reefing working, mid way I adjusted the cam cleat on the lower fiddle back into position and have used it in the traditional way since. In my experience long tails are hard to cleat and the rotating fiddle can make it tough to uncleat. Admittedly I think if you set your vang when you are hardened up you should not really need to mess with it much as you sheet out. The problem for me is I do not like it set when on the wind and it is occasionally forgotten as I sheet out.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
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USA
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Response Posted - 01/02/2005 : 22:21:25

Frank wrote: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I am fat, old, poor, and have a slow boat; my skin is very thick and my advice questionable. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 07:26:36

At the beginning of last year, using an idea I picked up I believe from Brooke, I reversed my boom vang so the line exited the cam on the block at the top on the boom instead of at the mast base. It has made vang adjustments much easier.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 09:38:51

I'll try that Don.With any cam cleat near the mastbase it seems like you might be fighting the cabin top when trying to engage.Good tip.

Thanks,Craig

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 12:00:40

Reversing it has its ups and downs. If your boom is out then trying to set the vang pulls in the boom. Lets face it, vangs work best when run back on the cabin top like other lines.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 14:05:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...Lets face it, vangs work best when run back on the cabin top like other lines.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, before I reversed my vang, I did have it run to the cabintop, but after experiencing problems with this setup, I moved it to where it is now with the cam/fiddle block on the boom.

The reason for removing it from the cabintop was that it was putting too much stress on the rig at certain times. I had removed the cam from the fiddle on the vang and led the tail to a starboard side deck organizer then back to a clutch and winch. With this setup, with tension on the vang on a close hauled port tack, the lower fiddle was closer to the deck organizer than it would be if I were on the opposite tack. When time came to change tacks, the vang would tighten excessively because the fiddle was moving away from the deck organizer. This overtensioning of the vang during a tack sometimes resulted in some strange sounds(pops and other line breaking noises). When tacking from the other direction, the vang simply became too loose because the fiddle was now closer to the organizer.

Mounting the vang on the centerline has eliminated my asymetrical vang.

Edited by - on

Dan86
Navigator

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130 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2005 : 23:02:33

Frank, I also hate the original (I think) set up with the cams for the traveler. Can you tell me, is that the same blokc/cam on each stancion? Please let me know, that looks like a much easier set up than what I am using, thanks in advance. Dan

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 01/04/2005 : 07:27:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dan86
 Frank, I also hate the original (I think) set up with the cams for the traveler. Can you tell me, is that the same blokc/cam on each stancion? Please let me know, that looks like a much easier set up than what I am using, thanks in advance. Dan

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes:
SAIL HANDLING MODIFICATIONS: Sails are our engines; sail controls and handling devices are our secret weapons. The stock traveler on the majority of the 25s was marginal when new and is a source of serious frustration now. I was provided guidance on upgrading the traveler car by Leon Sisson; (Leon is one of the many remarkable resources found at the national website http://www.catalina25-250.org), you need to get four Harken 160 sheaves for the bar sheaves and the control line sheaves and one Harken 277 sheave for the top of the bar. These are very nice ball bearing sheaves and make a world of difference compared to the old bushing sheaves. The car rolls like it should now.

Next I wanted to attack the control lines and improve their handling. I ordered two ea. Spinlock PX Powercleat, Single, Vertical Pivot, 1/8-5/16in. Plus 2 ea. Harken 1 1/8" Bullet Cheek Blocks. This allowed me to set up a new control system for the rebuilt traveler car. The Spinlocks need a fair lead from a turning block to work well when they pivot. The little cheeks work perfectly and mounting everything on the stern rail made it easy and strong. I am very pleased with this upgrade.
)

While on he subject of original Catalina hardware, I wanted to upgrade the backstay adjuster on my split backstay. There are many ways to skin this cat, I ordered a RONSTAN #RF104AW, SINGLE WIRE BLOCK, (under $25) and shackled it to the existing adjuster bull ring.
(backstay fig1)

Next I installed a simple 2:1 purchase made up from a Harken 2650 BLK-40MM CARBO FIXED and a Harken 2646 BLK-40MM CARBO W/CAM & BKT.

Finally I made use of the original transom mounted cam cleats for several things. The bitter end of the adjuster line that goes through the Ronstan block is made up to the starboard cleat fairlead and the Carbo with the clam cleat is shackled to the port cleat fairlead. I also lead the control lines for my Tiller Tamer through the cleats. This allows me to have enough slack to fit my tiller cover on when I leave the boat and an easy way to take up that slack when underway.
)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2005 : 19:48:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...remember that the loads of the blocks at the base are higher than the loads of a routing sheave in a deck organizer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmmmmmm... I'm not remembering why that would be...

Edited by - on

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