Association Forum - Spreader bracket bolt

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Spreader bracket bolt

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Gary B
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2005 : 07:42:47

I am trying to remove and replace the spreader bracket bolt and compression tube on my C25. THe through bolt will not come out of the mast. It only spins after I have removed the nut and will not budge even when tapped with a rubber mallet (smartly but gently so as not to damage the mast). Does the compression tube inside the mast connect to the mast in some way which prevents the bolt from being removed? Is there any way to remove the bolt and tube other than cutting the bolt head off? I would appreciate some feedback from anyone with some experience with this problem and I would also just like to understand the mechanics of something that appears to be rather simple and straightforward. I bought a used mast after mine was damaged by Ivan and am in the process of completely reworking the mast with new brackets, sheaves, lights, wiring, windex,antenna and lines, etc.
Thanx...Gary Burgess, Gulf Shores, 84 C25SR/FK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2005 : 08:46:36

Only a guess; the the compression tube is fused to the bolt. Heating the bolt head a lot might expand the bolt and break the corrosion bond. Let it cool then drizzle some WD40 or the like down the threaded end and let it sit for a day. Then whack again.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2005 : 10:03:07

Gary,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I am trying to remove and replace the spreader bracket bolt and compression tube on my C25. THe through bolt will not come out of the mast. It only spins...

... the process of completely reworking the mast with new brackets, sheaves, lights, wiring, windex,antenna and lines, etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have done this repair myself on a used mast for my 1979 C-25 with standard rig.

Just as Frank says, the large spreader base bolt is fused to its compression sleeve by corrosion. I would suggest you begin just as he suggests with a propane torch alternated with your favorite penetrating snake oil and light sharp taps with a small steel hammer. As you have already mentioned, be very careful not to damage the mast extrusion.

After a week or two, I got tired of heating, soaking, tapping, etc. without the situation improving. Next I used a 4" or 5" rightangle grinder to slowly and carefully removed the head of the bolt. Then I tried using spacers and a bronze nut spun with an air wrench on the bolt threads in an attempt to pull the bolt out of the compression sleeve. That didn't work for me either, but you might want to give it a try. It's quick, cheap, easy, and unlikely to cause additional damage.

What I finally resorted to was grinding both ends of the bolt flush with the exterior surface of the mast (using several layers of duct tape as masking to protect the mast from any slips with the grinder). I then used a large C-clamp padded with wood blocks, applied fore and aft, to gently distort the cross section of the extrusion at the spreaders into a more round oval shape. This allowed the remains of the bolt and sleeve to drop inside the mast, and slide out the end. (When the C-clamp was removed, the mast sprung back to its original cross section with no damage to the luff groove.)

When I reassembled the new SS spreader bases, I made up compression sleeves for the three thru-bolts, and a fourth sleeve (the diameter of the spreaders) for the two #10 self-tapping or machine screws directly between the spreader bars where they meet the mast. I made sure each of the three sleeves around the thru-bolts was a generous loose fit on the bolts. I smeared waterproof grease between them to discourage this problem from reoccurring in the future.

Good luck with that headache, and with the rest of your mast rebuild. Let us know if you have any other questions.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2005 : 10:43:58

Welcome aboard Gary.

Like Frank and Leon said, it appears that the compression tube and bolt have become one. As they said, use a little heat and lubricant to try and loosen the bond first.

When its time for whacking, the rubber mallet you are using may be absorbing most of the shock. You might want to try using a hard plastic mallet or small hammer to tap on the bolt. If it were my mast, I'd do the WD-40 bit, block the mast, then tap the bolt. Take a small piece of 2 x 4 and drill a hole in it just slightly larger than the head of the bolt in the mast. Place this piece of wood solidly on the ground then position the head of the stuck bolt into the hole so the threaded portion is sticking straight up. The wood should protect the aluminum mast while allowing the bolt to hopefully come out. Next, with the mast resting solidly on the wood, start tapping the bolt with as much as force as you are comfortable with, checking every whack for bolt movement or any distortion on the aluminum mast around the bolt head.

With any luck, it'll break free, but if not, it's on to plan B...whatever that is.

Good luck Gary. Let us know how it goes.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/29/2005 10:46:17

Happy D
Admiral

Members Avatar

921 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2005 : 08:22:38

These are excellent suggestions. Can this be placed in the Tech Tip section? I'm sure there are a lot of people that run into this situation.

Edited by - on

Gary B
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2005 : 08:46:04

Thanks for all the excellent feedback, I really appreciate it. I have used this forum as a reference since I acquired my C25 nearly 2 years ago and have found some wonderful help and suggestions in my reworking of Wind Dancer. This is the first time that I have had to actually request help and I won't hesitate to do so in the future. Who knows?...I may eventually be able to contribute some of my slowly evolving experience with others like me. I'll let you know how the mast operation turns out. Thanx Again!!
Gary B.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 11:54:02

Leon and others are right. Spacer is fused to bolt. Had same problem when changed out to stainless. Gave up on the WD40 idea. Finally sawed the bolt even with the mast on both sides and
then punched the remainer inside the mast with a hammer and nail punch. It sure was frustrating
to have a simple job take so long.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 23:39:25

I'm having a similar problem. This weekend I dropped the mast for re-rigging. I removed one spreader and now the bottom trhoughbolt refuses to come out. The weird thing is that I can turn it freely by hand and it wiggles to and fro some too. I've whacked it a bit with my rubber mallet but it does not budge. I'm kinda stuck.

A paser-by suggested I cut it off and drill it out, but with the compression tube in there I don't think it will fall though. What now?

I am glad (or will be when I'm done) I'm doing this because the rigging is original I think and was much more rusted than I thought. Even the spreader itself is very worn from halyard wear and must be condemned so I need to replace that too.

Anyway... I'm at a loss because the through-bolt turns freely but still won't come out, so it doesn't seem like it is fused. Any suggestions? TIA...

Bill B
84C25 Wind Dancer SR/FK
SF Bay

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 00:48:56

That's the way mine was. The bolt is free so it will turn. The compression tube is fused to the bolt so the bolt won't come out in the conventional manner. I carefully sawed the bolt even with the mast (must have been both sides). Then I was able to force the bolt to slip sideways inside the mast by tapping it with a nail punch. It then just dropped down the inside.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:02:21

(Hi Paul... Jim on 'Hey Jude' was telling me about you when we went sailing)

I have the masthead sheaves off the mast too so I thought when I went to the bottom and looked 'up' through that mast I thought I would see a little more of what is going on... but nothing. It's black. Now I'm wondering what else is in there! And of course I'm wondering how the heck to get the new compression tubes in and situated correctly. How did you guys do this?

Bill B

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:26:27

Bill B<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I'm at a loss because the through-bolt turns freely but still won't come out, so it doesn't seem like it is fused.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This is exactly the problem we are discussing in this thread. The bolt is stuck in the compression sleeve. The sleeve inside the mast is turning with the bolt.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">looked 'up' through that mast I thought I would see a little more of what is going on... but nothing. It's black. Now I'm wondering what else is in there!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Many of the C-25 masts originally had chunks of foam rubber in them to keep the mast wiring quiet. That's very likely what you're seeing (or not seeing past

).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> And of course I'm wondering how the heck to get the new compression tubes in and situated correctly. How did you guys do this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I used a long section of 3/4" or 1" PVC pipe with a V-notch cut into the end. I held each compression sleeve in the V-notch with masking or electrical tape until I got the bolt through it. I then pulled and twisted the pipe to break the tape. I installed a total of four compression sleeves in the spreader area.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:42:19

I hope I don't start a huge issue by relating how I installed my new spacer(s) and stainless spreader brackets about five years ago...
After removing the old seized up, funky hardware and castings, I drilled one side of the mast to match the outside diameter of the sleeves (which I fabicated from aluminum raw stock) and left the other side of the mast at the diameter of the bolt. The sleeves were fabricated to the the exact same length as the overall mast width (OD). The bolts and nuts are then tightend against the sleeves (flush to the mast outside diameter on one side, against the mast(inside the mast) on the other. The mast is not compressed at all when everything is put in place. If the new sleeve isn't exactly the right length and diameter (to avoid any shifting or slop) this won't work.
ps: the stainless spreader bracket retrofit "kit" has a very large diameter spacer included, presumably to help avoid mast compression with the new hardware ... Do not, in any way, cut any holes in your mast to accept this large spacer...perhaps someone who has installed that spacer will relate just how they did it. I chose not to.

Edited by - Mark Loyacano on 02/07/2005 10:35:24

PZell
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 13:30:52

Bill:
There were obstructions on the route to the spreader holes. Inside my mast is a foam tube to hold wires and some screws for fittings on the mast (cleats & such). It turned out that the screws around the bottom of the mast and I think the business around the steaming light were impeding the insertion of the PVC tube which had the spacer taped to the end as in Leon's method above. So, wound up taking the mast head off and lining up from that direction. Altho my casings looked ok. I felt better about the upgrade as the main bay sailing can get pretty intense.

Edited by - on

Gary B
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 18:08:08

Just an update...the propane torch and WD40 worked on my bolt and tube, actually only took about 20 minutes of alternate heating and tapping. Now I'm ready to replace the bolts and tube. I'm contemplating using 1x2 furring strips notched out to hold the tube in place (with a helper for alignment) but I think the idea of boring one side out to the diameter of the tube may also be a viable alternative. I'm also going to try the suggestion of 3/4 pvc as a conduit for my wiring. As to obstructions, I have a 1,000,000 candlepower light that really lights things up inside the mast. I found seaweed, dirt dauber nests, and all sorts of unidentified thingys that washed out with a hose...also some remnants of old wiring. The only things I see that may impede any work from either end of the mast are the large compression tube at the center of the spreaders and the screw ends protruding inside from winch and cleat mounts. I don't really think its going to be a problem. Thanx again for all the great advice.
Gary B. 84 SR/FK "WInd Dancer"

Edited by - on

Gary B
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 18:09:21

Edited by - on

Gary B
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 18:09:40

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 20:17:14

Good Job Gary. It sounds like you are fully in control of the situation.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:39:08

A quick update FWIW -
After my last posting I've been sidtracked by the masthead. The two pins connecting the forestay and backstay are frozen solid too. Advice from the local boatyard was to use "PB Blaster" (a penetrating chemical spray for this type of problem) to soak the area for several days and then tap out. Well, they've been soaking for several days and I've been able to move them about 2 mm (it took more than 'tapping').

This wekend the plans are to follow the advice here to remove the old throughbolt and install the new spreaders and brackets (I have to replace the spreaders too because one of the PO's kept the external halyards tied to the mast instead of around the shrouds and they are worn down from many years of rubbing), and, assuming I can get the masthead pins out, replace the broken sheaves and all the old rigging. Then, get the mast back up, tune the rigging, and go sailing again.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 11:27:09

I successfully freed the frozen pins from the masthead by sawing them off and drilling them out. Regarding the through-bolt (the subject of this post), I then spent several hours yesterday heating and tapping with no success. Will try that some more today. If no luck today, then on to plan B, as suggested by Leon and Paul.

Thanks Gary for posting this subject and thanks to all the masters here for your suggestions and advice. Without this forum I would be ** totally ** ignorant!

Bill B
84C25 4036 SR/FK Wind Dancer
SF Bay

(PS - With beautiful CA weather finally back, the action at the Berkeley Marina was plentiful, with lots of boats out on the Bay. The Berkely Yacht Club is having their final midwinter race this weekend, with many of my neighbors coming and going, and here I am on the dock with the mast down yearning to get out there!!)

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 12:19:50

...not sure who you can ask about exact temperatures but ... aluminum shouldn't be overheated. It doesn't behave like steel after heating. I think it looses strength. Does anyone know of experts about this out there?

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 14:08:19

Mark
Yes, I was concerened about that too. One of the old spreader brackets is still there (of course) so I only heated from that side so as to not get the mast too hot. The mast never got too hot to touch, although the bolt did. If there is a better, safer technique, I'm all ears.
Thx
Bill

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2005 : 00:40:20

FWIW... just to close this out. I finally had to saw off the ends of the through-bolt and let it drop through. I ordered new spreaders through CD and they sent me one and back-ordered the other. Well, I went around to the local boatyards to get some new spreaders (I couldn't wait) and a number of them pointed me to a local supplier of rigging supplies. He was very helpful (Steve Seal of Seal's Spars) and was amazed at the thought that a compression tube would be put *inside* the mast. He also discounted the outside-inside approach mentioned here by Mark L. His opinion was based on his "35 years of rigging experience". He said that the most commonly accepted approach was to drill 1/4" holes (= to the OD of the compression tube) through both sides of the mast and to cut the compression tube square to about 1/16" to 1/32" less than the mast's Outside Diameter, in order to allow for a small amount of compression. Based on the schematic sent with the spreader bracket kit, which looks like a copy of the original Catalina specification, I would say that it looks like that was the original intent. So that's what I did.

Bill B

Edited by - on

thaind
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2005 : 08:32:12

I intend to install tomorrow the stainless kit that I obtained from CD. I can see no reason for the tube to be installed inside the mast rather than between spreaders and intended to follow your posted instructions.

Thanks for the time-saver!

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2005 : 09:52:41

Derek - just a head's up... you will want to connect the lower shrouds to the spreader brackets *before* you bolt them to the mast. Once you bolt them to the mast there is not enough room between the bracket and the mast to work the clevis pins and cotter pins. I learned that one the hard way

Also, be sure to cut the end of the compression tube square... with all the torqueing around that the mast gets you want the brakets flush with the tube. I cut mine to be flush with the outside of the mast then filed it (carefully) down to the correct length.

Bill B

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2005 : 11:47:02

This has turned into an excellent and specific tech tip, I hope it will be harvested.

Edited by - on

thaind
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2005 : 08:56:43

I also found the bolt seized, but removed another way. Mast was supported on saw horses, so routed the end of a 4X4 to the shape of cast bracket already removed, cut 4X4 to fit plumb between seized bracket and floor and used hammer to push bolt through sleeve and into 4X4.

Thanks for the heads-up on conecting lower shrouds before installing brackets. Like to think that I would have done that anyway...

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.