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Where are the vented loops ??? Help I'm sinking...

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SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/12/2005 : 19:54:35

Maybe this has been addressed before, but I haven't been here lately,
I've been too busy sailing from The World Series 2004 (Boston) to the Superbowl 2005 (Jacksonville). Yes I'm in my C25 and have logged over 1600 sm on this voyage. I know there are no vented loops and I was wondering why Catalina would make such a big and dangerous mistake.

Also, are there any C25 cruisers in Florida that have made the trip south. I've added lots of toys including, GPS w/ charts, autotiller, remote stereo & speakers, solar panel, fishfinder, etc. I'll post fotos. Over and out from Daytona on the ICW.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 20:52:55

Vented loops are only required when there is risk of siphoning. The heights of the equipment in the Cat 25 realative to the waterline are such that vented loops are not generally required. Rest easy . Dave

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 21:07:55

Can't wait to read about the voyage. Makes my piddly 160 mile trip seem like a short ride around the marina.

Edited by - Lightnup on 02/12/2005 21:08:46

SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 21:08:34

Another dangerous mistake, I have no seacock on my discharge, this also is a cause a great concern. Thanks for your advice Dave, anyone else with some educated advise. EVERYONE (West, Nigel, etc.) says one NEEDS vented loops, especially if one plans on sailing and healing. Since I'm cruising and loaded down, I raised my waterline and raised the head, still need vented loops? or boats sinking from this mistake is a lie?

Also my bilge switch has AUTO/ OFF/ ON? Someone please explain what OFF is for? Another mistake if you ask me, OFF leads to a sinking boat ...

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 22:01:40

From the instructions with my Jabsco Manual:

FLOOD HAZARD:

If the toilet is, or can be, below the waterline, at any normal attitude of vessel heel and/or trim, a 3/4" vented loop must be installed in a lenght of hose connecting the flushing pump to the rear of the bowl.

Although you said you do not have a seacock for the head, Jabsco goes on to say:

If the toilet is plumbed for overboard discharge, a 1 1/2" vented loop must be installed in the discharge hose. The waste vented loop fitting must also be positioned 8" above the waterline at all angles of heel and/or trim and ideally should be located as close to the toilet as practical.

Have fun!

Edited by - on

SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 22:25:58

Thank you Bert for some educated advice ...

I love my C25 and think Catalina did a great job.
Except why install a faulty system??? No discharge seacock???
What is OFF for on the bildge switch??? Any ideas???
Also, where is my all-around anchor light???
Not standard equipment??? Thanx for all the input.

Capt. Mark

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2005 : 23:40:17

Capt. Mark, you should have let us know you were in Jax. for the SB. I am sure we here could have saved you some time trouble and provided other items of interest to a fellow Catalina owner. I guess you are staying in Daytona for speed week and the 500. It's a great time of year to be there. Keep us advise when you start back and your planned stopping places. Good luck on your continued journey.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 00:14:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailFisher
 
Also, where is my all-around anchor light???
Not standard equipment??? Thanx for all the input.

Capt. Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anchor lights do not need to be on top of a mast to be legal, there are many battery and 12 volt lanterns that can be hoisted. If you hoist one up the backstay they can be very nice as cockpit lights as well. And remember, the target market for our boats had price point as an important factor.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 08:24:59

Anchor lights should not be at the mast head. They should be about head high from the deck in the fore part of the vessel. I hang ours on the jib sheets behind the furler. If electric you plug it into the system with a 2 pole trailer plug. Dave

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SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 08:59:17

That's a great temporary solution, especially if you anchor once or twice a year. I see lots of people do the hoist the temporary thing (low draw bulb in an upsidedown saltshaker). I was looking for a more permanent solution. Since I just installed a $500+ electrical panel (pix to come), and rewired most of boat, I was wondering where my all around light is. Such a small price to pay to install it at the factory and a great safety feature, I know it's not required on a USCG safety check. What's wrong with the mast head, they make deck lights ... I know the masthead is a long run and I don't want to thread the mast, Does anyone have a better more permanent solution. Original questions are why no loops, seacock, anchor light, all installed around $100 or less at factory, funny corners to be cutting ... My boat is still sinking

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 10:45:12

In lieu of a vented loop for the dishcharge hose for the "icebox"/gally sink, Catalina installed a check valve to prevent backflow into the boat. Additionally, both the sink and the "icebox" are above the waterline under all but the most exceptional angles of heel and they couldn't drain by gravity if a vented loop was installed.

I wonder if the ventless head hose was installed by a previous owner or the commissioning yard as an aftermarket option.

Vented loops are sold everywhere and ahould be installed as high as possible over and behind the head if you have an overboard discharge Y valve system. Even boats with vented loops installed on the head discharge are at risk if the small vent (air check) valves are clogged which happens all the time due to the accumulation of "matter" or salt in the loop. The check valves should be checked periodically and replaced if they're not working since these valves aren't forever. If the air valves aren't working it pays to replace the entire vented loop.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 11:04:36

Anchor light location debate... IMHO stuff follows.

'Traditional' location on masthead:

Visible from longer distance, elevated where visibilty from the bridge of a ship may be better but may be LESS visible to small (local) boat traffic. (usually the biggest danger to C25) May also 'disappear' into low-hanging fog.

Located 6'- 8' off the water:

Lots easier to see from low-flying small boats, which are the primary danger for most of us... also gives some deck illumination which helps the boat be more visible too.

Rules for keeping boat afloat.

Every thru-hull should have a seacock.
Every seacock should be closed while underway and when 'not in use'.
Hoses connected to seacocks should be double-clamped.
Tapered softwood plugs of an appropriate size should be tied off ready for use near
each seacock.

Follow the above rules 100% and sleep soundly...

"Also my bilge switch has AUTO/ OFF/ ON"

Standard for a bilge pump switch. You need an off position so you could work on the pump... also you may have a situation where you had stuff in the bilge you didn't want pumped overboard (like fuel from a diesel leak, engine oil, spilled bottle of shampoo etc).

Another one for the checklist... the bilge pump should be tested regularly by giving it a momentary run... operation of float switch or electronic switch should be tested regularly.

The bilge pump switch position should be on the standard 'checklist' before leaving the boat or going to sleep.

Potential Checklist:

All seacocks closed.
Anchor Light working. (depending on situation)
Anchor alarm on. (situational)
Check Anchor, docklines or mooring pendant (as situation applies)
Bilge pump set in auto position.
Stove/heater fuel supply off/disconnected/safe. (depending on situation)
Engine fuel shut off or otherwise secured or disconnected. (depending on situation)
Sails & anything else loose on deck are properly secured and stowed.
Ok, hit the bunk... one more check... is the flashlight handy?

-- bb

Edited by - ClamBeach on 02/13/2005 11:10:33

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 11:11:59

Look people, the top of the toilet bowl is well above the water line and far enough inboard to be safe when heeled. Its just one more thing to buy and maintain if you do not need it. The sea valve is another issue and probably indicates that the boat was originally sold with a PP and was owner converted to MH with pump. If you, as most of us now, discharge to a holding tank this whole issue is moot. The purpose of a vented loop is to prevent back siphoning to an opening that is below the water line, like the head in a boat with a fairbody draft of two feet or more, or an bilge pump that for some reason had to discharge underwater.
Anchor lights often do not work due to infrequent use. If its at the mast head there is litle you can do about it when you notice that it doesn't light up at 9 PM. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 02/13/2005 11:16:02

SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 13:30:02

Day 3 of a 3 month cruise, going from Cape Cod to Newport, the boat is loaded down and I moved the water line up (as stated before). The Bilge Switch in OFF position, MY BAD MISTAKE, (done it again) now with a small craft advisory, NW 25- 30 w/ 3-5 feet, I'm having a great time, sort of.

Six hours of conditions y'all are too scared of or a lot smarter than me, the boat had over two feet of water inside. It came from the bowl splashing out and then leveling off again, splashing out, then leveling off again, maybe a loop would have prevented this, I know a sea cock would have, but the bilge only cures the symptom not the problem. Another "cure" that I did was raise the head up by two 2x6's, almost 3.75".

If an anchor light up top fails, get in a chair or use a temporary. I have many temporaries, 12V and battery. If you don't like going up, I know a few powerboats for sale.

As far as the original equipment, ya'll can contact CATALINA, give them your hull#, and they will give you the original order for free.
Mine lists the head.

Thinking for a moment, my electric and manual bilge ports ARE underwater when the boat squats underway. This also sounds like a problem. The manual comes up high enough, but the electric is all underwater. Aarrgghh ...

With an outboard engine, no diesel or fuel or oil and I'm bald so no shampoo will leak. I've done the above mentioned mistake a few times since, once again with feet of water inside. If I need to work on the bilge, I will take out the inline fuse. It's now wired AUTO and ON only.

Thanks for all the input, that's why I come here to hear lots of different opinions.

Edited by - on

SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 13:37:49

The only reason I went out in a small craft advisory was, it was the ONLY good day for the past two and the next three, had to get south, too cold.

Check out SailHook.com for more on voyage.
(email with typos and comments)

Happy sailing, it's 75 degrees today.

Capt.Mark

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 14:50:00

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 17:35:37

My guess would be that the bilge pump rather than the head was the cause of your experience. The head has a rather effective check valves built into it and large volume flooding thru the head is unusual. Not saying it can't happen, Ive seen it , but not that amount in that kind of time.
It sounds as if you may be one of the learn by experience types since you did not appear to have taken notice of any of these problems before the adventure.
In any case you survived the first go round and I and all of the others on this site will try to help you to avoid such excitement in the future.
Colregs state that the anchor light shall be at least 2 meters above the hull and in the fore part of the vessel ( I'm going on memory since I can't find my copy of Nav rules) but in any case there is no advantage to a mast head anchor light and there a several reasons not to have one. The most important one to me is not to have the weight of the light and wire at the mast head since it reduces the power to carry sail. Second is the inaccessability in the event that it does not work.
One last comment and that is that you might do better with a little less complaint and a little more contemplation of the posibilities. The master of a vessel is expected to anticipate problems and prepare for them. Take good care of your crew and don't scare them. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 02/13/2005 17:57:12

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 18:04:13

Re the mast head light...Catalina is mounting them on the masthead on some boats. I have a C320 brochure that says, under Electical Systems: "Anchor Light on the Masthead" and "Deck Light and Steaming Light on the Mast."

It seems to me that SailFisher came here for help and assistance, and to be part of the group. Lets give him that and omit the other unnecessary and irrelevant comments.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 18:10:19

I just went out to our boat and measured the relavent heights of the water line and the head. The rim of the bowl, where it would flood over, is 7 inches above our actual water line. Dave

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 20:11:50

I can only hope that someday I'll have the time and freedom to enjoy a voyage like this.

Steve

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 21:03:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 
It seems to me that SailFisher came here for help and assistance, and to be part of the group. Lets give him that and omit the other unnecessary and irrelevant comments.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Did I miss something? I think every answer has been on topic and genuine. Sailfisher has an interesting bio;
I've been sailing for 20+ years and I own a 1982 C25 SR/FK "Catalyst", slipped in Boston Hahbah. We captain 50's in the BVI during the winter. USCG Certified Master Sail Captain.

Mark, I just want to remind you of something that we do not say often enough. Speaking as Association Secretary; all posts here are casual opinions posted by individuals and carry no warranty of any kind. This is an unmonitored forum, all posts here are also independant of any consent or implied support of the Catalina25-250 National Association.
I look forward to more photos on your website. You are a very lucky fellow.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 02/13/2005 21:05:17

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2005 : 06:24:38

Did Catalina build C25's with overboard discharges for the head? I don't remember seeing any posts talking about factory installed overboard discharges and the C25 parts manual does not mention it either.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2005 : 08:43:08

Regarding anchor lights, if you are travelling on the ICW, you are bound by the Inland Rules of Navigation, not the International Rules, which are slightly different. Inland Rule 30(b) states that vessels 50 meters (164.0 ft.)in length may show only a single all-around white light wherever it can best be seen. Rule 21(e) also states that an all-round light (anchor light) must show 360 degrees over an unbroken arc of the horizon. These requirements have been tradionally achieved by mounting the anchor light at the masthead. If a masthead light is not possible or practicle, two lights on either side of the vesel may be shown so long as they project the required two miles and 360 degree arc.

You may also be referring to an all-round masthead "combination light", which combines the side (red-green) and white 220 degree steaming light. This is a running light which, on vessels 12 meters (39.4 ft)or less, may be carried only as close to the centerline as possible, but may be at the mast head.

Regarding your flooding problem. It was not caused by a lack of a vented loop. You failed to close the water inlet valve for the head while under way, which caused water to enter the boat through the head. If you had been flooded with sewage, it would have been a vented loop problem. Since you had "2 ft" of water in the cabin you could eliminate the holding tank since I believe you only have a 15 gallon tank.

By the way, my 88 TR/WK came with a loop. It is my opinion that when the vessel is at heal the head/holding tank may be "below" the water line. A vented loop may then be required to avoid an unpleasant mess in the cabin.

While penalties are not often assessed for violations of these rules, the Inland Rules stipulates a $5,000 civil penalty for each violation. You may also be assessed additional penalties for discharging effluent in coastal waters or other damages which your violations may have caused.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2005 : 12:14:45

Hi Sailfisher, its great to have another long distance C25 sailor, licensed captain, and (I presume) fisherman in the group! Well I love to sail my C25 long distances and offshore, and like you, have enough sea time to have become a USCG Master (50 ton) with sail and towing.

So one of the benefits of that experience is knowing and understanding that the C25 is a very simple and basic boat. The company is still in business, parts and knowledgeable owners are readily available. The Catalina 25 has many, well-known flaws. People in this group know how to fix all of these.

I think when you buy into a C25 you have to buy into the knowledge that its not a blue water, long distance, offshore pocket cruiser. It was meant as a daysailor/racer/coastal cruiser. Like me, you've driven the boat in ways it was not readily designed and constructed for. So you have to be prepared to do upgrades so the basic vessel will meet your advanced needs. Here is how I have addressed your points.

(1) Anchor light. Many C25s have masthead anchor lights. My older one does not. I'll probably anchor out 30 to 50 days per year. I bought the Davis Mini-mega (upside down salt shaker as you call it). I hoist this up the backstay. It provides ample cockpit light, very low power draw, and has a solar cell that turns it off at dawn if you're sleeping in. Low power, simplicity, and dual-use (cockpit light). If you want a masthead light, a fixture is available from Catalina Direct, people here can tell you how to easily lower the mast and snake the wire. You already have a deck plug wired and with a switch on the stock electrical panel for this.

Low power draw is essential to me as I meet all my cruising electrical power needs with 2, 11 watt United Solar flexible solar panels (simplicity, foolproof).

(2) 2 feet of water on board in rough seas. That must have been scary. I close all gate valve through hulls when sailing. Opening them and closing them often is very good practice.

(3) You must know from your USCG classes the standards for the electric bilge pumps. Our size vessel does not require one. A manual pump is standard. Bilge pumps should be wired directly to the battery, waterproof wires/connectors, waterproof fuse, come on automatically, with a bilge pump alarm. The alarm would have saved your bacon that day, as mine did on an earlier, larger vessel I owned.
I've stuck with my manual pump, figuring that if I had that much water, my batteries would be toast and I'd be pumping manually anyways. But I have only 2 holes in the hull below the waterline (sink/icebox and knotmeter). All are closed when sailing. I leave my lower companionway door in during rough weather incase of getting pooped, and keep the overhead hatch closed.

(4) Head. I have a porta-pottie and love it for its simplicity, ease of dumping when legally offshore, no leaks, no plumbing, no through-hulls, plus side benefit of additional storage (no holding tank).

I don't think you have (yet) discovered the other major weak points of the C25. The strong points outweigh these, in my opinion. When you do, we'll be here to help with repairs and upgrades.

Meanwhile, I don't think its fair to bash Catalina. Deal with it, do the upgrades, and lets go sailing!

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2005 : 13:09:35

Al,
I don't think Sailfishers head discharges to a holding tank as most of ours do. I think that the two feet of water might be a little exagerated as well since that would be about 15,000 lbs of water and would have lead to severe free surface instability with almost no freeboard. A combination almost guarenteed to lead to loss of the boat. However it was obviously enough to be scary. Dave

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2005 : 20:08:12

Dave,

You may be right about Mark's flooding problem. I should think this is a valuable lesson learned for all of us. One must not go to sea without a well equipped vessel and a thorough knowledge her systems. This could have been a lot more serious for our friend on the ICW.

Lets put this one to bed.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 02/14/2005 20:10:21

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