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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Fin vs. Swing Keel

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Steve Siefken
1st Mate

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USA
81 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/27/2005 : 23:06:43

I am looking at buying a 1984 C25 with a swing keel. Until now, I have been looking at only fin keel models and was leaning that way. I presume they take up some room in the salon, but is there any other downside to the swing keel (i.e., reliability, etc.)? I am thinking of mooring the boat in salt water.

Thanks,

Steve Siefken

Steve Siefken
'84 SK/SR #4654 "Nicosha"

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2005 : 23:28:02

Go fin.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2005 : 23:34:09

The wing or fin are by far the preferred configuration for mooring in saltwater. Lots of us do have swingers in saltwater, but you need to be prepared and equipped to pull the boat anually for regular inspection/maintenance of the keel assembly, cable and winch.

Not a huge burden if you have a trailer and are mechanically competent, but a task nonetheless.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2005 : 09:34:43

Steve S,

My 1979 C-25 swing keel seems to have been kept in tropical saltwater its entire life. As ClamBeach said, it can be done, but you've got to be willing and able to do the preventative maintanence on the swing keel system. Actually, that's true no matter what flavor water you're floating in. I haul and maintain mine about every 18 to 24 months.

Compared to the overall maintenance required by one of these boats, (or any similar sailboat - I'm not trying to pick on the C-25) regardless of keel style, the additional expense and effort of looking after a swing keel is no big deal to me. Be aware that all the C-25 swing keels, as well as the earlier fin keels, are made of exposed cast iron. Now <b><i>that's</i></b> a maintenance issue, particularly in salt water! I totally encapsulated my keel in epoxy and fiberglass which has greatly reduced the amount of work needed to keep the rust under control.

In the 1984 C-25 models, I don't think the swing keel takes up any significant additional space in the cabin. Fin keel owners will undoubtedly call me on this if I'm wrong!

To summarize, from my point of view, in the context of my sailing venue (coastal Florida), the swing keel is the way to go. The first time you run one aground with the keel down, and escape by just turning a crank, you'll have a very smug smile on your face.

There is also the obvious huge advantage if you ever trailer.

Others here will advocate the wing keel configuration. Note the difference in purchase price, in pointing ability, and then make your own decision. Good luck with whichever C-25 you choose) (And remember to send in your owners' association dues to help keep this great website going.)

-- Leon Sisson

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2005 : 11:48:26

When I was shopping I had the same dilema. The Catalina factory says that the swing is not recommended for long term storage in salt water. After reading that, on this site, I looked at fins only. Mine is cast iron and is epoxy encapsulated. 25 years slipped in salt water and still looks new:

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2005 : 13:51:49

If you have water enough to use your fin as you wish, the fin is by FAR the better choice IMHO. However, if you plan to spend a majority of time in shoal waters, you may wish to trade the (critical)increased maintenance and care required for the swing, to get the ability to go in the shallows. But of all the shoal designs I know, the C25 swing is one of the worst designed for regularly "taking the ground" as the english say. Ron srsk Orion SW FL

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2005 : 08:53:56

Steve,

If you are going to race, get the fin. It most likely points better than the swing (2d best) and wing (the worst). I have a wing and have still done well club racing however. If you are day sailing/cruising get the wing. It involves far less maintenance time and expense and still allows shoal draft sailing.

Whichever model you decide on, make sure it has a reliable depth sounder and use it. You really don't have to run aground after all. I've been sailing my Catalina 25 since 1989 and have not been on the bottom yet, though I've come too close for comfort an more than one occasion.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2005 : 20:01:08

Hi Steve,

Everyone jumped right in with a lot of very good advice, but let welcome you to the catalina family and congratulate you for choosing the C25. What ever keel you choose, you are going to get a great boat.

I have a swinger and am very happy with it for it's designed purpose. It allows me to launch and retrieve the boat easily. If you have a swinger the only time you want to raise the keel is to put it on the trailer. The issue with mooring a swing keel is wear on the keel pin. this happens when the boat is moored with the keel up. The rocking of the boat will cause the keel to move back and forth wearing the pin. with the keel down it is locked in it's slot and will not move (unless the pin is already worn). So from the time she goes in the water till she comes out the keel stays down. I like to trailer sail and I can get to various cruising grounds about the Great Lakes within a day or so. My friends with larger sailboats need a week or more to get to the North channel and the better part of two weeks to get to Lake Superior. If you feel you may want to visit other cruising areas a C25 on a trailer makes a very nice small cruser.
Good luck finding the right boat, hope it's a dream.

Edited by - John V. on 03/01/2005 20:09:24

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2005 : 22:29:21

Welcome, Steve... I have no quarrel with anything above... The swing keel does not take more room in the cabin in the 1984 model. It wasn't till 1989 or so that a new cabin floor mold was used for the wing keel model, which superseded the swing. It provided a flat, lower floor and more headroom.

If trailering is of interest, go swing or, better yet, wing. If you'll be on a mooring, storing in a boatyard, and have no major thin-water issues, go fin, as I did. Personally, (and many will disagree), I wouldn't buy a swing keel C-25 to moor in salt water. If I needed the shallower draft in salt water, I'd look for a keel/centerboard boat, where the ballast is fixed and the board has minimal mass. These days, that's how all shoal draft boats are built. (Water ballast is basically just a variation on that.)

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2005 : 17:33:14

Hmmm...Fin or Swing???

My sailing venue consists of a silty, somewhat level bottom with the occassional boulder thrown in to make things interesting. This area of the lake is shallow within a 1/2 mile of shore and because this is where the Detroit River empties into Lake Erie, it can get shoaly unexpectedly.

Because of these conditions, when sailing my old swinger I kept to depths of 8 feet or more to maintain a comfortable two foot buffer between me and the bottom. This meant not lowering my keel until I was well offshore and once offshore, I headed for more open water and stayed there. On one occasion I was sailing along in about 8-9 feet of water when a huge powerboat kicked up a nice sized wake which lifted my boat into the air. When the boat came down in the much shallower trough, my keel slammed straight down into the bottom sending a shudder throughout the boat and rigging. We had hit so hard, I was sure that the hull was now well hogged, with the keel sticking up through my dinette table.

When motoring in shallow areas, I had to be extremely careful of depth because with the keel up, my rudder was the first thing to make contact. Fortunately, I had a swing up rudder which came in handy on numerous occasions when I ran out of water, but if it were a fixed rudder, it might've been ripped from the transom.

With my fin keel, my comfort level for depth while sailing has been lowered to 5ft or more which has allowed me to sail in areas I wouldn't have even considered with my swinger. Also, with my fin being a little deeper than my rudder, the sturdier keel will hopefully hit(and it has!) before the much more fragile rudder.

So in actuality, the fin has enabled me to sail in skinnier water and to motor in the shoals with less worry of tearing off my rudder.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2005 : 19:07:29

Steve:
Don brings up a great point. I have a wing, and wonder about my rudder in skinny water. I do trailer though. I didn't want to have to maintain a 1500 lb piece of cast iron. I tend to drop things on my toes. (I dropped my rudder and broke two toes last year--I said "oh no, golly, shucks" while the tears went down my face.

Everything in life is a compromise.

How deep is the water where you will sail?

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2005 : 19:32:32

For what it's worth, John V's advice is exactly contrary to the Catalina manual, which specifically says to dock/moor the swing keel UP. We've been over this again and again and again. My experience from 20 years with the keel UP is that there is less wear in that position on the keel, as well as on the pendant. However, if you check the archives, you will find this debated ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I figure when all else fails, read the instructions.

Brooke

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