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What does a new rudder cost?

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/23/2005 : 20:51:36

I have a small crack along the back of my rudder, i was thinking of replacing it as part of my summer 2005 "to-do's"

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2005 : 21:10:16

same answer as your last question.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2005 : 08:45:40

The price has probably changed by now, but when I called CD a few years ago, they were around $425.00.

The crack in the seam is a fairly common complaint and one that is easily corrected. On my balanced rudder, I simply cleaned out the crack then filled it in.

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/24/2005 : 11:27:44

Thanks Don. So basically i shouldn't have to worry about the entire rudder splitting and ending up in the drink.

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lcharlot
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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2005 : 15:52:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 77Gypsy
 Thanks Don. So basically i shouldn't have to worry about the entire rudder splitting and ending up in the drink.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It depends on what is causing the crack. If it just a surface gelcoat crack from stress, you don't have a serious problem, except that repairing the crack probably won't last; it will eventually crack again. However, if the rudder is actually beginning to split and delaminate due to water penetration of the core, you need to start setting aside the money for a replacement. There are two core materials used in Catalina rudders - the older ones are plywood cored and the newer ones are foam cored. If your's is still the original from 1978, it's plywood. How to tell if the core is getting waterlogged? If you know someone who owns a moisture meter (typically a marine surveyor), you can ask him to check your rudder. If no meter is readily available, your alternative is a simple weigh-in on a bathroom scale. If there are some other boats in your marina with the same rudder, ask the owner if you can weigh theirs for a comparison. If this results in a mix of foam and plywood rudders, you will immediately spot the difference in weight, and you should also be able to determine which kind yours is if you don't already know. Whichever core material your rudder is made of, compare the weights of all the sample rudders (of that kind) against yours. If all of the sample rudders are very close to the same average weight (meaning a low standard deviation from the mean), and if your rudder is more than about 5% heavier than the mean, you can probably assume there's been some water penetration. If your rudder is grossly heavier than the mean, say 40% or more, the core is probably completely waterlogged. A waterlogged, dryrotted rudder core has practically no strength, and it will fail at some point when enough force is applied to it. I will ask around at my marina if I can weigh some Catalina 25 rudders, if I see the owners working on their boats, and post the results here in the forum.

Edited by - lcharlot on 03/25/2005 15:54:50

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 08:44:42

Perhaps the scariest moment in my sailing career was during an all day distance race on Lake Superior a few years ago. I was nearing the south end of an island which has a long reef extending a quarter mile south from the island. I was about 200 yards to windward of the reef with winds northwest at about 15 knots and tacking way. The rudder suddenly felt very sloppy in my hand. I asked one of my crew to check the conditon of the rudder. After doing so, he looked at me with eyes as big as saucers. Al, he says, the rudder's broken. I looked over the transom and sure enough, the rudder is bent to starboard at a 45 degree angle below the bottom gudgeon and the seam along the back is split wide open. I immediatley slackened all sheets to get the pressure off the rudder. We still needed to keep moving however or we would drift onto the reef. With minimal pressure on the rig the boat seemed to move ok so we continued to sail the race, passing 3 other 25 footers before rounding the island and heading for the finish. With winds off the starboard quarter (broad reach) she sailed fine. We ended up placing sixth in a 10-boat fleet. The boats that beat us were a Santa Cruz 40, C&C Redwing 30, Tartan 10, Tartan 28 Sandpiper, and a Siedelman 25.

I believe that while on the mooring during a particularly nasty storm the previous night, combined with the unusually low water experienced back then, the rudder slammed against the bottom in a wave trough, causing an internal fracture and thus the splitting of the seam under pressure. Both gudgeons were bent upward. While there were extenuating circumstances in this case, it is my opinion that the seam in the old style rudder and the end-boom sheeting system, are the two biggest safety hazards on the C25, hmmm, well, maybe I should add the alcohol "curtain burner" stove as a third safety hazard. But that's another story.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 03/26/2005 08:50:32

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 13:03:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If no meter is readily available, your alternative is a simple weigh-in on a bathroom scale.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Original 1977 rudder with all the metal removed,
32.5 lbs.
This rudder should be dry, it hasn't been in the water for 10 years.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 13:41:29

)

As the others have said, the split in your rudder may or may not indicate a serious problem with it.

From my own experience with my balanced rudder and from postings from other forum participants, it appears that our rudders have a tendency to separate along the seam where the two halves are cemented together. The seam split on my rudder was more hairline like in nature and was primarily occuring on the part of the rudder above the water. The rudder itself didn't show any signs of delamination, hollowness, bulging, or any other indication that this crack was more than a cosmetic condition.

To correct, I used a Dremel to open up the crack, then filled it. I heavily coated the underwater portion with an epoxy barrier coat and so far, knock on wood, the crack hasn't reappeared. Others on the forum have done similar repairs with some using a table saw to open up the seam then filling with epoxy.

If you decide to make the repair, just be sure that your rudder is indeed structurally sound first.

Edited by - on

thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 15:03:19

I found a crack in my rudder at the bottom pintle and observed that it has small but visible movement when pressured.

There are a couple of plans for balanced rudders on this website, and I have redrawn one in Autocad DXF format, made a full size print, and intend to manufacture a new one. I would post the drawing for anyone interested that has a plotter, but don't know how, so please ask if desired and I will send.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 15:38:51

be careful with balanced rudder drawings.
According to the catalina parts department they manufactured three different size balanced rudders. Somewhere on this site is a drawing for one, and mine is a different size.
When I ordered mine from the Catalina parts department they sent me the wrong size replacement, even though I sent them a detail drawing of my existing cracked rudder. They paid to have me ship it back, sent me the proper one, and included a new tiller and brackets for free for my trouble, free of charge.
Let's see Hunter top that.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 19:45:46

Derek,

I built one for my boat about 5 years ago. It has held up well so far. I can probably pass on a few "lessons learned" if you're interested.

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thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 22:55:12

Yes I'm certainly interested in your experience. Plans call for laminating two sheets of 5/8" ply. Was wondering if it would be better to include a stiffener between, or to laminate from solid.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 01:07:53

Derek,

I used two 5/8 pieces of exterior ply. Exterior ply is supposed to use the same glue as marine ply, but generally has thicker and fewer plies and more voids. If I were doing it again I would use 3/4. The fiberglass did not add as much thickness as I expected. My rudder ended up a bit thinner than it should be. Before glueing the halves together I would thickness plane the interior surfaces to get a smooth surface for glueing and make the total blank the right thickness (somewhat less and 1.5'). When glueing the halves, you may want to drill an array of holes all the way through and use some bolts, washers and nuts to get a uniform compression. When the glue dries, remove the bolts, drill out the holes, tape the holes on one side and fill the other side with epoxy. This will fill many voids with epoxy if you're using plain exterior ply.

I don't think you can add anything to the middle to make it stiffer. It will be too thin. You can gett more stiffenig on the outside surfaces where any flex will be exagerated and resisted by the high tensile strength of the glass fibers.

I used uniaxial cloth as the first layers. 90% of the fibers run in one direction on that cloth. I ran those fibers along the long surface of the rudder to resist any bending from the foil's lift. I added several layers of biaxial cloth to finish. On any of the "square" edges (above the waterline) be sure to put a nice radius on the edges using a round over bit in a router. Glass doesn't want to make sharp bends. The glass will spring away as the fibers try to straighten out before the epoxy sets, leaving small airpockets or delaminations. Running the fibers of the glass on the top layers at a 45 degree angle to the line of the edges will help it lay flat as the epoxy cures and provide the most resistance to the twisting forces on the rudder from the tiller.

I used a close approximation to a NACA 0009 symetric foil. I used a jig and a router with a rabbiting bit to remove most of the material in long steps and then finished with a belt sander. The NACA foils have a leading edge that is a semicircular cross section. Mine ended up too "sharp" on the leading edge. Should have just used a round over bit on the router for the leading edge.

I might have some old posts in the archives on this subject from when it was fresher in my mind. Good luck on your project. Let us know how it goes.

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 03/27/2005 01:12:00

thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 07:35:17

Thanks for the help.

I have a thickness sander and will use 3/4 as you suggest unless I decide to go the route of making it from 6/4 X 3/4 maple. I will let you know how it goes.

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Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 08:16:07

This post had me taking a close look at my rudder.
It's [url="http://home.wmis.net/%7Edhapp/rudder/rudder.html"]cracked [/url] at the lower pintle, on both sides, Big Time.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:05:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 This post had me taking a close look at my rudder.
It's [url="http://home.wmis.net/%7Edhapp/rudder/rudder.html"]cracked [/url] at the lower pintle, on both sides, Big Time.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yikes!

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:28:11

Nice thing about the new rudder I got from the Catalina parts dept is that they are now made without seams

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:28:42

Dan,

That is where they break. The unbalanced rudders are particulary susceptable as they have stronger twisting moments from the tiller.

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2005 : 18:49:57

When you order a balanced rudder you need to disclose the hull number in order to be assured that it fits your boat. It's also a good idea to order it with the pintles attached for the same reason.

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mwalkup
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2005 : 21:17:25

This may be a silly question but I'll ask anyway.
Just how much of an advatage is a balanced rudder and should I feel compelled to obtain one?
I think I read once here that it was like adding power steering to your boat.
My original rudder is in good shape and I recently filled in the seam and barrier coated the bottom half, also up-graded to the new heavy duty gudgeon & pintle's so it all seems fine to me.
So again in the grand scheme of our boats, where would a balanced rudder fall.
Thanks
Mike
83 tr/fk #3528

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 06:49:27

I'd rank it at the top of the list. You'll be sailing with your fingertips on the rudder in conditions that used to tear your arm off.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 13:30:14

At first I didn't like it. I like to "feel" the boat in the water through the pressure on the rudder. Once I got used to the new balanced rudder - you just have to be more senstive to what it's telling you, I wouldn't change for anything.

While the merits of the new rudder are obvious to those of us who have one, they do not necessarily justify spending the $425 plus dollars needed to buy one. Think seriously about it the next time you need to fix your old one or replace your pintals and gudgeons.

Al
GALLIVNT #5801

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 14:13:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mwalkup
 This may be a silly question but I'll ask anyway. Just how much of an advantage is a balanced rudder...I think I read once here that it was like adding power steering to your boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My boat came with a balanced rudder so I can't give a direct performance comparison between the two designs, but a lot of those who switched, like Mark on Silver Girl, have said that performance has improved significantly especially in the area of weatherhelm. With a portion of the rudder forward of the pivot point, both actual weatherhelm and weatherhelm created by the rudder itself are reduced.

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 15:09:40

Hey Don,
Could you explain "weatherhelm produced by the rudder"

I know you can

This is a new one on me.

always willing to learn new stuff

thanx

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 16:13:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Hey Don,
Could you explain "weatherhelm produced by the rudder"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll try, but I'm not an engineer...

It has to do with the lift generated by the rudder. As water passes over the rudder, lift is created with high pressure on one side and low pressure on the other. Let's say the main part of this lift is centered fore and aft on the rudder's surface. If the rudder pivoted on the leading edge, as it does on an unbalanced rudder, and this force is pushing aft of the pivot point on the center of the rudder, then you will feel a force on the tiller trying to push it one way or another. As lift (pressure) increases pushing the rudder over, more pressure is needed on the tiller to counteract that pressure to hold it in place.

On a balanced rudder, the pivot point is behind the leading edge, closer to the center of the lifting force. With the lifting force closer to the center of the rudder and the pivot point, less force(pressure) is exerted up to the tiller.

Edited by - dlucier on 03/29/2005 17:06:57

Gloss
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/29/2005 : 18:09:34

Thanks Don
I know one thing: My catalina 25 with a balanced rudder is more responsive, easier to steer, and has less weather helm than my old Catalina 22. It seems strange that a much larger boat would be that way, but it is.
I liked my C22, but I really like my C25 a lot more. I wonder how I'll feel when I get a C36. (gotta keep sending out those positive vibes)

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