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Revival of C25

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David Scott
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/05/2005 : 14:53:28

Wouldn't it be great to have new C25's with the wing keel. I am referring to 1987-90 models that seem to be so popular. It is getting harder to find an 87-90 in top shape. Actually the swing keel in my opinion was a hard one to beat too,but I understand why they had to go as they got older and maintenance was more of an issue as well as liability concerns. I wonder what it would take for Catalina Yachts to revive or reinvent the C25? Anyone feel the same or have any input on this??

Dave Scott 89wk/sr #5973

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2005 : 15:33:21

The molds were destroyed in the great Woodland Catalina fire, or so the story goes. Seems like there were molds on both coasts at one time. They were also too expensive to sell by the time they killed it; too much material and craftmanship involved.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2005 : 16:15:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by David Scott
 Wouldn't it be great to have new C25's with the wing keel. I am referring to 1987-90 models that seem to be so popular...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They were so popular, that the factory stopped making them after only a few hundred or so were produced.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2005 : 17:57:32

I would like to see a melding of the best features of the 250 into the C25. I really like the transverse bunk under the cockpit, the open transom, center-boom sheeting, the main hatch system, open interior, and probably a few others I don't know about. I like the warmth of the teak trim in the C25 interior, but would like to see less on the exterior, probably handrails only. I especially like my tall rig over the standard rig. The galley is not needed in my opinion, but a big, well-insulated icebox, and reliable, stowable stove is. The pop-top should also be retained as a standard feature.

Items which I have spent years accumulating that should be options that you can pay for as part of your mortgage should include two batteries, battery switch/isolator, and a decent electrical panel with battery monitor. The running rigging should also include a rigid boom vang - at least as an option. Other good options would be a good quality but inexpensive autopilot such as Simrad ST10, speed and depth gauges, and a compass. Finally, a good quality mast raising system should be included with the price of the boat.

Thats's my take on the C25 of the new milenium.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2005 : 21:05:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 I would like to see a melding of the best features of the 250 into the C25. I really like the transverse bunk under the cockpit, the open transom, center-boom sheeting, the main hatch system, open interior, and probably a few others I don't know about. I like the warmth of the teak trim in the C25 interior, but would like to see less on the exterior, probably handrails only. I especially like my tall rig over the standard rig. The galley is not needed in my opinion, but a big, well-insulated icebox, and reliable, stowable stove is. The pop-top should also be retained as a standard feature.
Thats's my take on the C25 of the new milenium.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The only thing you forgot was another foot of beam; by the way that boat is the Capri 26. That is the boat that never should have died!

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2005 : 06:51:50

When I talked to Lowell at Catalina Direct about the 89 wing he told me that Catalina discontinued production after building only 223 of them because they were too expensive to build, and sell.

Edited by - on

David Scott
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2005 : 19:55:58

Interesting comments,thanks. Maybe profit margin was not enough for materials/labor necessary to do the job.I just wonder if Frank Butler knows how popular they really are. It seems to me if new C22 wings can fetch $20000+ then reproducing C25 wings might go for $30000+. C250's certainly can cost this much and C270's can go for $50000+ oh well...

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2005 : 22:52:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by David Scott
 It seems to me if new C22 wings can fetch $20000+ then reproducing C25 wings might go for $30000+. C250's certainly can cost this much and C270's can go for $50000+ oh well...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Let's see...paying for two college educations for the next 3-5 years....
Hmmmmmm. I don't even want to think about it

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 00:43:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 I would like to see a melding of the best features of the 250 into the C25.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What I like most about the C-25WK Mk. IV:
1. 6'-6" headroom with the pop top up.
2. The V-berth and head can be separated from the salon with a privacy curtain. Unless I am mistaken, the C-250 doesn't even have a V-berth.
3. Strongly built and durable hull and deck (the downside is very heavy trailering weight and poor performance in light air compared to the 250)
4. Interior layout makes very efficient use of the limited volume - lots of storage, berths for 5 people (assuming the owner has concocted a queen-bed-dinette system of some kind).
5. Side decks. I don't like having to climb up on the cabin top in rough conditions, which you have to do on C-250's, Hunter 26's, and Mac 26's.
6. Full Eight-shroud standing rigging. I have never felt comfortable with the 6 shroud systems on the newer boats, with the side shrouds raked way back. You can't wing the main out very much on a downwind run with these swept-back rigs.
7. The C-25's lines are classic; the boat looks good even tied up to the dock. The newer boats without side decks don't make me smile just to look at them.

What I like about the Catalina 250WK:
1. Substantially less trailering weight than the older C-25.
2. Motor bolts directly to transom, so you can leave it on while trailering.
3. Cut-out transom is easier to re-board after a swim.
4. Some people like the mid-boom sheeting - I haven't made up my mind on it yet.
5. Cockpit is wide enough for wheel steering if you want to go with that instead of a tiller.
6. The C-250WK can walk away from a C-25 in light air conditions, especially if it's a Tall Rig.
7. The big stern berth is nice, although you do give up the big port-side lazarette of the C-25. This is a personal preference issue. I'd probably rather have the lazarette since there is hardly every more than one person sleeping on my boat (me, of course), and I don't need a huge stern berth for just one person.
8. Good sailing performance, except I've heard it's a more "tender" boat than a C-25, and can't carry quite as much sail in breezy conditions.

What I DON'T like about the C-250:
1. Lack of full standing standing headroom for taller-than-average people (like me). This would be a non-issue if only the boat had been designed with a real pop-top like the C-22 and C-25. I guess the hinged hatch cover on the C-250 is better than nothing, but it's a far cry from the full-size pop-top on the C-25.
2. No V-berth, and the placement of the head compartment is not as "space-efficient" as the head on the C-25.
3. The one-burner butane stove...yuck. A 25-foot boat that advertises berths for 5 people should have a 2-burner stove.
4. I already mentioned my preference for the 8-shroud rigging. I'd be happier about the C-250 if it had that.
5. The total interior volume seems much smaller than a C-25's; in fact the first time I was ever shown a C-250 (water ballast), I thought to myself that it seemed hardly larger inside than the C-22 I had at the time, if you didn't count the stern berth. At least my C-22 had a full V-berth.

My Ideal C-250? Keep the cut-out transom, big cockpit, and transom motor mounting. Lose the hinged-lid and put on a full-size pop-top for us tall folks. Give the boat a V-berth and put the head between the V-berth and the salon. Retain the big aft berth, it's a nice feature, especially for families with young children. Put the galley where the head compartment is. Keep the displacement at about 4000# so that performance will still be good (compared to 5500# for the C-25 Mk IV).

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 11:06:46

Since I have owned both the C25 and now the C250 here is my 2 cents worth.
The 250 does have a v-berth the same length as the 25. The rigging on the 25 does not allow the main to go any further forward than the 250. The 25's aft mast stays are actually further towards the rear than the 250. The WK has plenty of head room for average height people without the pop top up, but I would not mine having that also. The water ballast, however is a horse of a different color.
My primary dislike for the 250 is its tendorness. She rolls up at a very rapid rate in gusts. To the point at times to bring your heart up in your throat when caught out in rough weather and you don't see it coming. I would guess that one of the reasons for the deeper keel was the flat bottom and the roll rate.
The opened up interior is very nice an gives you a great feeling when you enter, but I would preferr the storage of a 25 versus the good feeling.
For my new C25 I would cut the deck off the hull of a 89 or 90 WK then mate that with the deck of a C250. This would give more head room and a shallower draft. Speed in light air is not a big deal, but stability in wind wipped rough water is of great concern for cruisers. Interior would be the C25, but without the sink accross from the head. A large storage cabinet with losts of shelves would be my choice for that space. A few cable races front to back between hulls would also be a biggie.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 11:40:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 She rolls up at a very rapid rate in gusts.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

(psst, "rounds up")

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 13:31:19

I like this thread on designing a new 25 footer. A few more thoughts...

I don't mind at all going onto the cabin top of the 250 even in rough seas though that has gotten a lot better after loose footing the main... but if going foreward of the mast, I wish for side decks every time as traversing the forward slope of the cabin in rough conditions is not fun and might even be considered unsafe. IMHO, a furler is worth twice its cost on a boat without sidedecks. I'd vote for the sidedecks to come back.

As to the V berth on the 250, it sprawls aft onto the wide cabin settees and provides very good sleeping accomodations other than when anchored in a seaway and then there is a lot of movement... enough to throw one against the hull if the boat tacks fully over to beam on the swell. The ventilation and easier access of the V berth make it my berth of choice. I've no complaints about the V berth on the 250.

The pop top is a mixed bag compared to the C22 I owned. The hinged forward top kills a little standing area aft of the table but it increases the overall use of the top. I didn't always go to the trouble to raise the top of the C22 but the 250 top is so easy to use that it is used automatically every time the boat is stopped. Further, the all weather enclosure provides a standing room boat in foul weather (even on the water ballast)... fantastic for those times when weather holes one up for two days. The rotating pop top did provide awning that the hinged top doesn't. The all weather cover is the deal breaker making the hinged top the all around better of the two. There is really no need of a full pop top that serves the area above the cabin table.

The aft berth of the 250 needs ventilation. Some have added port windows to the cockpit kick panel. I've not heard good forthright critiques of the results of these, whether they are considered fully solving the ventilation need. My aft berth is used for storage with occassional use of the starboard berth cushion making it a quarter berth for the two grandkids when they are aboard with us, otherwise the berth cushions are not carried aboard.

The bilge system on the water ballast is sad... while it collects under the aft berth, only a few quarts of water will see the contents of the bilge migrate with a pitching boat in the channels in the storage areas of the galley, cabin settees and V berth. Thankfully, the boat has basically a dry bilge... but if any water does get in... be prepared for a major haul out of all lockers to dry things out.

Like Larry, I'm unhappy with the rigging but not for the same exact reason... my problem is that the lack of forward lowers while making settup for a trailer sailor very easy... all but eliminate the ability to use a back stay tensioner. My work around for this is to use a running baby stay... something workable for a cruiser but not for a day sailor or racer. I don't find the swept spreaders to be much hinderance off wind after doubling the vang purchase to 8:1.

I would like to see Catalina change the rigging in either one of serveral ways.

<ul><li>One way would be to use a rocking mast truck, which would tighten the forestay without drawing the mast truck aft and loosening the shrouds when a backstay tensioner was employed.</li><li>Or, instead of bringing the lowers out to chainplates, use diamond shrouds to hold the center of the mast and then a mast jack could be used to tension the forestay.</li><li>Or, a forestay tensioner </li></ul>

As long as we are talking major design changes, I'd consider going dual rudders and moving the outboard into a well just ahead of the transom with the swim ladder in the middle aft of the motor.

My reasons are that dual rudders can be asymmetrical and on hull forms the width of the C25 and 250, there is such a tendancy towards increasing weather helm with heeling. Asymmetrical rudders would deal with that by providing countering lift by the leeward rudder during heeling. Two rudders would also have less draft even using high aspect ratio rudders with better lift to drag ratios. The strength issue of one large high aspect ratio rudder would be moot.

Such a design would also allow using a standard shaft and lighter motor and provide greater security for the motor as well as less misbalance to the boat. I would want the motor mounted on lifting rails to clear the prop for sailing with a seat top over it to make the helm seat with wheel steering and provide access step from a swim sponson with motor lowered. The swim sponson would serve as the top step of a well done swim ladder giving easy access to the boat from the water or ground when trailering. The smaller twin rudders would also provide no problem launching with rudders shipped. Finally, such a motor mounting would greatly add to the looks of the boat under sail.

The cabin table of the 250 was designed for family boating and is too large for day sailing and cruising... I think Catalina needs to provide some options here rather than have an owner left to discard the table and create their own.

Last... if the total weight of a 25 foot boat can be kept within the abilities of a standard half ton truck for hauling long distances, I'd like to see water ballast traded for a center boarder that retracts into a keel trunk similar to the O'day or the new Hunter. It could be that the centerboard itself could be weighted but counterbalanced so that it wouldn't be a trunk breaker. Perhaps a third of the ballast in the keel trunk and the other two thirds in the center board with some of that at the bottom of a six foot balanced swing keel. If this could be done while keeping the boat trailer height near to that of the current water ballast and the overall weight not more than the current wing keel 250... I think it would be a winner.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 04/07/2005 14:23:31

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 17:48:05

Arlyn,

Perhaps the Association, particularly the C250 side of the house, should take this information and present it to Catalina Yachts for redesign consideration. They always say that they listen to their customers, maybe they will take the advise of their biggest backers.
Who knows, in two or three years we may see a new generation of C250's hit the waves - something for Larry to sink his teeth
into.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 19:34:25

I know this is not unusual, BUT IS ANYBODY LISTENING? CAPRI 26!!!!! If you want to talk them into putting a boat back in production that is the one and it is better than the 25 or 250.
Model Catalina Capri-26 AKA baby 28'
LOA 26' 2 in
LWL 22' 11 in
Beam 9' 10 in
Draft 4' 10 in / 3' 5 in
Displacement 5250 / 5100 lbs
Ballast 1900 / 1750 lbs
Sail Area 295 sq ft
Mast Height 36 ft., 11 inches
Headroom Aft: 5' - 8"
Water Capacity 13.4 gal
Fuel Capacity 14 gal
Universal M2-12: 11 hp
or Aux. Power
I 32.9'
J 8.7'
P 27.6'
E 11'
Look it is pretty!

With side decks!

a midboom traveler

Aft head, open interior, enough beam for real settees!

Edited by - on

reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 19:44:21

Sorry if this topic is covered in an old thread, but why was the Capri 26 discontinued? You're right Frank - pretty vessel. I wonder what happened to the molds...

Edited by - reuben on 04/07/2005 19:45:26

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 20:16:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Beam 9' 10 in <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Need more be said...

Both the C25 and 250 are designs that will serve the trailer sailor/cruiser... the Capri 26 does not fit that category.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 20:23:52

Once you get past an 8' beam, there are all sorts of ramifications regarding trailering.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 20:45:58

And the 250 WB is the finest trailerable sailboat on the market and possibly ever; it stays in production. But if Catalina wants to sell more boats they once again should take a cue from Hunter, realize there is a large non trailering market in that size range and go after the customers. I hate my 8' beam. I feel both the 25 and 250 have too much freeboard for the beam they carry. I think the 22 is a much better balanced design in that regard.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 21:02:58

What about this?

http://www.seawardyachts.com/26rk.html?

I am sure it is lots of money. The design look solid and improves upon most of the 25-250 issues. I like the way it looks as well.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 21:04:32

Another point regarding the Capri 26, Bill Holcomb who used to be a Catalina dealer, suggested it was his belief that Catalina may have felt that the Capri 26 would fill some of the void left by the discontinuance of the C25. If Bill was right and that at one time was the thought, it may be the reason why the c22 mkII was designed... to become the premier trailer sailor/cruiser and fit the remainging gap and challenge Roger Macgregor who with slip fees climbing was selling a bunch of 25 foot trailer sailors. At some point in 93, Catalina probably came to think that they had no choice but to challenge for market share of 25 footers capable of trailer sailing/cruising.

While I don't think Catalina has ever admitted it, many have suggested that the c250 may have been a very quickly produced design. Looking at the Capri 26, I can see where the interior of the c250 came from. Also, the c250 has often been critiqued to have an improper lead (leed) with the center board forward too close to the mast. The Capri 26 suffered a similar problem with a keel too far forward with some owners shifting the mast forward a few inches to tame the helm as has been documented in Mainsheets several years ago.

The 250 is ascribed to be a Gerry Douglas design while I don't know who designed the Capri 26.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 21:06:17

I agree the Capri 26 is pretty, but is has to be slow. Its heavy, too! I wonder how the pinched stern affects downwind stability.

The seaward is very pretty - went on one at Miami boatshow last year - but its ways spendy.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2005 : 21:20:45

Tom, I've been on but have not sailed on a Seaward and considered it a very fine boat. Your right, they are expensive. The one I was on did not have an open transom and getting aboard from a dinghy was a real pain to go over the transom. I don't know if the swim ladder was factory or add on but it was wholly inadequate for bare feet... not even close to the comfort of the stock ladder of the 250. Also, the inboard diesel could not keep up with my 250 with 8hp Honda outboard which leads me to believe that perhaps undersail, she performs a little less as well. Otherwise, I was super impressed with the Seaward.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 17:55:59

My guess is that the Catalina 25 was discontinued becaue it was just too expensive to build and would approach the price points of larger, newer models that due to their design were more economical to produce and therefore profitable.

Figure the cost of a Catalina 250 and guesstimate what they would have to charge for a currently produced 25. Other builders offer premium small sized pocket cruisers at premium prices but I don't believe that's Catalinas niche. Without taking anything away from it, the 250 is aimed at another market and doesn't truly fill the needs of a salt water sailor who sails "near offshore" as I do. Catalina effectively abandoned that market for 25 footers.

I for one would love to see the boat reintroduced with some of the improvements mentioned above, but with the original quality and "small yacht" feel intact.

They could call it the Catalina 25 Mark II.

Edited by - oldsalt on 04/08/2005 18:13:01

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 22:24:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 
I for one would love to see the boat reintroduced with some of the improvements mentioned above, but with the original quality and "small yacht" feel intact.

They could call it the Catalina 25 Mark II.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
From all I've seen, the tag would be $45,000 plus. Relative to that, there are many economies designed into the C-250. BTW, the Capri 26 is nowhere near being a "trailerable"--too beamy, so why would you not get a Catalina 28 for more room and LWL?

Edited by - on

David Scott
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 23:07:55

No one has yet mentioned the C270. A friend of mine,who has sailed a C25 for alot of years just bought one and has ordered a tri axle trailer to make it mobile to distant places.I saw one on Lake Oroville,in No. Ca,last week and it really looked great! It compares with the Capri 26 but is still in production,has imho a more functional and eye pleasing stern,better layout for galley,5'10" headroom,double spreaders for strength and stability,but a BIG pricetag.My friend could have bought a larger boat but he wasn"t willing to give up trailerability yet he wanted a bigger boat.Now he has a solid boat to follow his dream to explore the NW inside passage to Alaska, yet trailer it back to Ca. do lakes,S.F.Bay,or who knows...

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2005 : 00:28:49

the C270 has a 8-6 beam, which requires permits in many areas. I'm not a racer by any stretch, and I was able to consistently go faster than a C270 in our club.

Like Lowell said, the 89 wing was just too expensive for Catallina to build.

Edited by - on

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