Association Forum - Sanity check

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Sanity check

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

10timesSaltier
1st Mate

Member Avatar

80 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:03:25

I have been delaying a much needed install of a new aft seacock and thru-hull (the one under the galley sink).

There is no travel lift at my marina - boats lift in and out by a construction crane that is rented for a couple of hours, and you pay by the hour (around $150/hr).

So, in order to remove the old valve, and install a mushroom thru-hull, I have to hire the crane, and pay him to hold my boat while I remove the old valve, then grind, drill, sand, prep, goop, set, tighten, and thread on the new seacock. I wouldn't think I could do this in less than 3 hours ($450 just for the crane).

Anyway, here's why I need a sanity check: The other day, I saw a dock-neighbor heel his boat over with halyards from the top of the mast down to a dock cleat two or three slips down. The boat was heeled over enough that the toe rail was just above the water, and you could see the top of the keel. He then replaced a thru-hull with his boat in that position. My eyes about popped out of my head.

You can imagine my temptation, but I want sanity to prevail. Is this guy crazy? Is it safe to do something like that? How much of a load would be on the masthead, etc? Obviously you wouldn't want any other boats anywhere near this operation, and you would want to incorporate redundancy in the halyards-to-dock setup.

Should I abandon the thought, or proceed with caution?

Brian.
Great Salt Lake (10-times saltier than the ocean)
"SAFARI", '81 C25 TR-FK #2275

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:23:32

I've been tempted to do that to work on my masthead.
I would work from the roof of my dock so it wouldn't have to be heeled over quite as far as you would.
Plus I have a SK which would be raised to relieve at least some of the stress on the mast.
I would be interested in hearing about it if you get it to work.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:47:45

The amount of stress that sailboat rigs can withstand never cease to amaze me. IMHO, The stress that is imposed on the rig when you force a boat to heel in that manner is no greater than the stress that is imposed on the rig when a big gust of wind heels the boat by blowing on the sails. I've never used that method, but suggest you talk to the local person who did it for his tips and suggestions. FWIW, before you do it, you should tweak your rig to be sure it's well-tuned. Also, I suggest you do it on a weekday when there are likely to be the fewest boats around, to reduce the likelihood of some powerboater going by leaving a wake while the boat is heeled over. You should definitely have a suitably sized plug available, in case a halliard breaks after you have removed the old through hull. (Otherwise, you might have to stick your finger or toe or other appropriately sized body part in it, and wait until someone comes by and you can ask him to hunt for a suitable plug for you.)

The idea of heeling the boat that way to work on it doesn't really appeal to me, but, given the choice of doing it that way or paying $450. (or more, if some problem arises and you can't get it done in 3 hours), I'd probably do it. Good luck!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:48:01

I knew of a guy who would put his antifouling paint on the hull and, after he was in the slip, he would tilt the boat over using the halyards and paint the two bunk board stripes. His boat was a lighter 22 footer.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:49:52

I'm not an expert, but I seriously doubt the C25 mast and deck mounting would accommodate the loading. When I needed to install new instruments, including drilling new through-hulls, I borrowed a neighboring C30's boat lift for the afternoon. Any chance a neighbor in your marina might be willing to do the same for you? The boat lift doesn't need to be perfectly fitted to your boat for this short-term, limited use. As a matter of fact, the C30s upper struts never even touched Antares' hull.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 14:21:21

THAT is a good idea!

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 14:38:59

Are you sure it's not a salinity check you need?

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

Members Avatar

921 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 14:40:19

I would not tilt the boat over and change the through hull. My problem with this idea is that the sealant will need time to cure before getting it wet.
3M 5200 says "48 hrs. tack free and cures in 5 - 7 days." I would make sure that the sealant is fully cured before getting it wet.
It took me quite a while to grind the fiberglass down to a flat surface for the flange to bear down on. I added several layers of woven roving and cloth to the area for strength. All this took several days.
I was removing the original to-hull but that may not be the case with your project.
Good Luck,
Dan

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 15:52:13

To be safe, on the cap stay that takes the tension you might mark off 6mm from the top of the turnbuckles. If the cap stay stretches more than 6mm (assuming normal wire strand shrouds) then you've exceeded somoething like 75% of it's strength so you're approaching it's breaking point (red-lining for sure). I've not done it but I've read that in some rigging book.

FWIW...
Bill B
Wind Dancer #4036
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 16:01:26

I've seen this careening technique used on both a C27 and a Starwind 27 - it worked well on both.
Derek

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

Members Avatar

672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 18:57:21

As mentioned above, a boat lift, we have 'hydro hoists' here, would do the job very well. One of our compatriots has his boat on a hoist, and even tho a Hunter owner, lets us borrow it when necessary. This way you could take all the time you needed, with the boat safely up out of the water...at no cost...well, maybe a six pack of wisdom enhancement fluid.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

Members Avatar

318 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 21:20:38

There is no basic problem with doing this. If anything is going to break its probably going to break in a gust sometime anyway. 3M 5200 will cure just fine underwater. Look things over carefully cause it could get exciting if something lets go. The force involved is probably less than 400 lbs on the halyard at max righting moment so not anywhere near breaking strength. Dave

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 21:46:43

The one problem you will face is the displacement one. As the boat rolls it pushes down in the water.The normal forward velocity underway provides lift which also produces the wake.

2 of my 3 thru hulls would never see daylight heeled over in a slip unless the windows were in the water.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2005 : 12:34:25

$350 haul-out vs. god knows what if things go awry with the heel-over technique?

Doesn't sound worth the risk to me.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 01:59:25

Why do you have to stay in the crane for the full time during the repair? I have never heard of boat repairs being done with the boat still in the hoist. The usual procedure is for the crane operator and yard workers to get the boat set up on jackstands in the yard ASAP so that the crane can service other boats. Does your marina not have a dry storage and repair yard? What do you do with the boat during the winter months? I don't imagine Salt Lake has a year-round in-water boating season; you must haul out November-March or thereabouts, don't you?

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 08:57:50

Larry's suggestion is what was running through my mine as I read your post...perhaps a rental trailer might be a usable device if jack stays or yard space is not available. You might be able to rent a trailer for around $100 for the day and move it to a corner of the yard to do what needs to be done then back to the crane.

By the way if you spend your off season on the hard isn't that the time to do this work?

Val on Calista
Dockside 500/s34

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 11:10:24

I will have an empty swing keel trailer down in Provo in a couple of weeks. I dont know if that could be of any use. I will look at the rollers to see if they could be raised enought to serve a fixed keel. You are wellcome to borrow it any time.

Clay

Edited by - on

familysailor
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 16:00:32

Hey Clay,
What can we do to help you get your boat into the water. The rest of the C25 fleet (Todd and me) is wet and enjoying the season. Please let me know if I can help

Edited by - on

10timesSaltier
1st Mate

Members Avatar

80 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 16:12:43

This forum is awesome! I don't write much, but I read it almost everyday (I'm the quiet type). Thanks for all the input everyone.

No, the GSL never freezes, so we don't spend the off season on the hard. Unfortunately, we only have a crane day a couple of times a year, so taking the boat out to replace a thru-hull means I'd have to leave it out for quite some time -- not something I'm willing to do @ this time of year.

I have no doubts anymore as to the kinds of pressure the rig will withstand. I was out sailing Wednesday in 25 knots (single reef and a sliver of jib rolled out). We started getting hit with 50 knot gusts 3 or 4 miles from the marina (our infamous "Toole Twisters") at which point the boat didn't round up (which is what usually happens in strong gusts). Instead, the boat just went flat over on it's side and seemed to stop moving. The masthead was literally only five to six feet off the surface of the waves for a couple of seconds as the spray from the water in the wind screamed over the mainsail. The NWS has a station on the lake and recorded 68mph as the max recorded gust.

But, even rig strength considered, I think I'm going to err on the side of caution considering the mess I'd have if something went wrong while "careening" (thanks for the word Derek) the boat in the slip. I shudder at the thought.

I think I'll wait until this winter, take the boat home to do the needed work, then splash back in next spring.

If anyone tries this crazy idea, please post your results :)

Edited by - on

Jeff Howe
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2005 : 16:43:41

I have used this technique numerous times to thoroghly clean the bottom, check the zinc and prop on my Irwin 30. The rigging is designed to withstand this amount of pressure...Imagine a gust that lays a boat on her ear...without dismasting. You'll be pulling her over nice and gently. I have heard this called "kedging". I am agreeing with most above that you should look into a more stable, safe, inexpensive and time-friendly way of accomplishing your task.
I ran the spinnaker halyard to a finger that was three slips over. I just used one dock cleat, however in hindsight, I should have used a couple of cleats on the dock. The Irwin (which I sold and am looking for a C25) tipped the scales at 10,200 lbs...So splitting the load between two cleats would have been better. But, one halyard is plenty to pull her over.
Good luck & fair sailing...

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.