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Odd questions from a ex-sailor

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Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/17/2005 : 09:45:10

I'm 55 retired for ten years, and suddenly a wannabe writer of Sci Fi. I'm currently writing my second book. My first has cleared the first three hurdles for publication, but is waiting for a final decision from the executive publisher. My sailing experience is 35 years out of date, and limited to Sunfishes, cats, and a much loved Catalina. I loved sailing, my wife of 36 years doesn’t... sigh do the arithmetic.

In my book, a group of marooned prison inmates needs to build a rather large ocean going sailboat. I would greatly appreciate a few simple answers to strange questions. My first plan was to have them build something like a Viking Knorr (Knarr), then I saw an article on the canting keel and was intrigued. Do those things really work and do they make a difference in stability, speed or safety? What is the largest boat that could benefit from a canting keel? Would it be possible to build a canting keel with equipment you would find in typical auto maintenance shop? Last but not least, given 20 workers, unlimited lumber and naval supplies, a small machine shop, and an abundance of steel, what sort of boat would you build to transport the maximum number of passengers on a 2000 mile ocean voyage? In my story, there is one inmate who once owned a Hunter Passage 456, or any other sort of expensive boat that might prove useful.

Reb

Free Us for Joyful Obedience Through Jesus Christ Our Lord

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 10:03:24

Hi Reb,

'Interesting premise for a book ... I hope you get some help here.

I know very little about boat design, but that won't stop me from making a comment ...

IMHO the canting keel would be a bit complicated to build, and I don't know how it might contribute to a boat design like you've described. One recurring theme on this Forum is that "simpler" is almost always "better." I would think that simple, strong, and reliable would be the best guidelines for this sort of boat.

BTW, did you ever live in Georgetown, Texas?

Good luck with your book!

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 11:24:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 Hi Reb,
I would think that simple, strong, and reliable would be the best guidelines for this sort of boat.

BTW, did you ever live in Georgetown, Texas?

Good luck with your book!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That was my thinking on the Knorr, but the ability to sail close tot he wind...

Not only did I live in Georgetown, Tx, I still do. I thought I recogonized the name, good to hear from you.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 11:27:09

I assume that once your people shove off they are on their own.
Lots of material with low sophistication would take me to ferro-cement. Build a double skinned boat with the available materials and fill the void with concrete. It would be virtually indestructable and leak proof.
The British use dual keels so a boat can sit on them when the tide goes out, that could allow a large ship to "dock" itself on a distant unknown shore.
Research old Popular Mechanics for the tubular sails articles. In theory a bunch of oil drums welded together to make columns could create a sailboat that would use no cloth.

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 14:26:18

Those are marvelous ideas. Yes the characters are more or less on their own once they are sea. This is Sci Fi, so it's not quite as straight forward as it would be writing about Earth. Rescue is not possible. They have navigational equipment and weather info, plus any data one could find in a snapshot of the internet. Thus old copies of Popular Mechanic aren't available but all sorts of plans are. They will need to use the boat extensively to recover resources not available where they are stranded.

One of the problems with trying to create innovative characters is that the writer's characters are seldom as innovative as real people. Concrete is an option, although I'll have to think about the steel. They have a large amount from their prison, but they have great needs for steel too. I'm not sure they could spare it for a boat.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 15:17:17

After the hull sets up they can strip it as needed.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 15:56:02

This could be a good thread.

First of all, a canting keel is way overkill and not what they need. Its an exotic racing configuration. However, since its Sci Fi, I assume you would like to push the envelope of technology a little. You've also mentioned a shortage of steel so perhaps you should consider water ballast.

Hull, mast, rigging, ballast, sails, rudder, the particulars have not changed in 10,000 years. I'd build a traditional sloop, ketch, or schooner.

The problem is, you have not told us what raw materials they have to work with. Fiberglass seems out, since you need complex hydro-carbons and glass fiber. Not something you can just throw together with cleaning chemicals.

Wood?

Epoxy?

Aluminum? Does the crew have anyone that can weld aluminum?

You can make pretty nice boats from canvas and glue.

How about Bernard Moitessiers planned boat made from newspaper?

Building the basic hull out of steel is quite easy and can be done in a few days.

Also, and this is key, are they trying to sail upwind? If it is a downwind voyage, a kon-tiki type raft will do. If its a beam run, a viking long boat with oars. Square rigged. Upwind? a more traditional full keeled sailboat with marconi rig is essential.

Where are they going ? Coastal or across an ocean? We need to know.

PS. you can use these questions in your book. If an escaped prision leader came to an experienced mariner and asked him if he could build a boat he would ask you the exact same questions.

Edited by - JimB517 on 05/17/2005 15:58:36

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 16:21:31

If your looking for some excitement, create scenario where the canting keel will come into play and save some lives.... I can't think of an exact scenario, but there are a number of passages in and around some island chains that require a high tide passage, require motoring only or any number of other oddities. If you set the scene so that Ed, the guy who normally works in the library distributing the prison books can save the day with his canted keel or new foil design.

Americas' Cup teams messed with a kite design that flew way out and up in front of the boat. They never quite got it to work so they scrapped it.

There's the KIWI's hula skirt and the Oracle teams white box - that no one new what the heck it was...

I can't think of a scenario where a canting keel would work, but there are tons of innovations in sailing that you could come up with something.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 17:58:22

How large a vessel are you contemplating in your story and how many people do you invision it'll need to carry?

Anyway, here's my $.02.

For durability, ease of construction by available unskilled labor, and maximum size, I'd opt for a low tech hull designed of wood with plank on frame construction.

Long bluewater voyages during the age of discovery were the forte of square rigged ships which although not known for their windward ability, could shorten sail to meet whatever conditions they faced. Additionally, they could carry a huge complement of souls compared to their physical size.

For your purposes however, I'd opt for a Chinese junk or some variant, the design of which you could embellish to make it somewhat exotic.

The design of galleons during the age of discovery, were based on the shape of a "mackeral" whereas the junks of the same period were fashioned after "ducks" and were much more efficient hulls.

While the galleons were more difficult to build and were limited in size to around 65-80 feet, the largest Chinese vessels of the same period ranged up to 350-400 feet in length.

The framing for a junk is much simpler to construct as is the planking. In your story you could have your protagonists build one even larger.

The masts, rigging, and sails used on junks are much easier to build and therefore, the sail handling is easier since the spar system is far simpler and there are fewer sails.

Your charactors could construct a really huge junk with as many masts as your imagination will allow( they might even lose a few in storms during their passage).

Junks will point higher into the wind as well.

Some sort of a huge, exotic, semi high tech junk might fit well into your plot line and using a little poetic license, you can stretch the sailing abilities as much as you need to. You can throw in some exotic materials into the design and construction as well.

Anyway that's my $.02, perhaps my whole idea is well,....junk.

Good luck with your novel.

edited to add: .......and ditch that Hunter from the story line.

Edited by - oldsalt on 05/17/2005 18:05:51

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 20:34:58

CATAMARAN!

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 20:43:49

>>shortage of steel so perhaps you should consider water ballast.

In doing my research, I've come across several references to water ballast, but I've not seen any pictures. I haven't gone to one of the local sail shops. I've been a peddler and I hate to waste a working man's time. One of the cargoes that they will be carrying will be bulk crude oil. Containers are a problem, so fluid motion even with baffels will be a problem. I thought that a cantering keel might be used to offset some of that. Especially if it had a wing. Of course, that will require that someone make something like a gyroscope. However, the initial cargo will be people.

>>Hull, mast, rigging, ballast, sails, rudder, the particulars have not changed in 10,000 years. I'd build a traditional sloop, ketch, or schooner.

That was my first thought until I began looking at the amount of hardware they would need to build one. I know that during the age of exploration several shipwrecked sailors built new, if smaller, vessels to get home. However, my guys don't have the fittings and trying to build those with little more than a small lathe would, I think, be difficult.

>>The problem is, you have not told us what raw materials they have to work with. Fiberglass seems out, since you need complex hydro-carbons and glass fiber. Not something you can just throw together with cleaning chemicals.

Their biggest shortage is people. They only have 72, and 36 of those are pregnant or newly delivered. In addition to building the boat, they need to hunt, explore, farm, log, build housing and train for military defense. They have what you might expect to find in portion of a maximum security prison and a large parking lot. However, most of the fence material and concertina are being used to protect their crops from herbivores ranging from mice to wild cattle.

>>Wood?

They have a large old growth hardwood forest at hand. They can harvest trees up to about five foot in diameter, and have plenty to chose from. They also have very tall trees (120' or so) that could be used to make a keel. The have built a kiln to dry the wood and have built a sawmill. They also have pine trees and thus navel stores like tar, oakum, pitch and some distillates. Frankly, I don't know exactly what those are used for, I just know that their availability allowed ships to be built in colonial Virginia.

>> Epoxy?

No, they don't have any bonding material, nor any hydrocarbons other than the diesel and gasoline that is in their storage tanks. They are also short of nails. The ones they have are made by cutting their case hardened chain link fence.

>>Aluminum? Does the crew have anyone that can weld aluminum?

They have a master welder, but he is now forced to work with hydrogen and oxygen as fuel sources. They have electricity generated by their backup generators, but they are getting short of fuel to power them. The only aluminum is what they'd find in the cars in their parking lot.

>>You can make pretty nice boats from canvas and glue.

Cloth is one of their greatest shortages. They are trying to spin thread from animal fur and they have rotting ponds for flax but only small quantities. The sails will, in all likelihood (unless someone has a clever idea,) be made from animal skins. I believe that was done in Roman times. They are trying to make glue from animal hooves, but a hunger for gelatin is getting in the way.

>>Building the basic hull out of steel is quite easy and can be done in a few days.

They have large quantities of steel but they don't have large sheets of it. Most of the larger pieces of steel come form a steel building and the steel doors in the prison. I'm not sure I'd trust a hull made from sheet metal welded together... although a steel hull does have appeal.

>>Also, and this is key, are they trying to sail upwind? If it is a downwind voyage, a kon-tiki type raft will do. If its a beam run, a viking long boat with oars. Square rigged. Upwind? a more traditional full keeled sailboat with marconi rig is essential.

>>Where are they going ? Coastal or across an ocean? We need to know.

They are on a planet with two large land masses. (think something like the Americas versus the Europe, Asia, Africa land mass) They are on the smaller. The resources, like crude oil, they need are on the other one. There are trade winds similar to what you would find in the Atlantic, so they are going to need to sail into the wind, but hope to be able to use larger sails extensively. I was thinking about something like a large spinnaker.

Re: the PS The only experienced sailor is a convicted politician who bought a boat too big to sail in the only lake available to him. Those are the sorts of questions that one needs to know to give good advice. I love providing those sorts of details, but then this is a forum to talk about sailing, not my imaginary problem. I greatly appreciate the indulgence shown to me, and I'm more than anxious to provide any other details that might help you give good advice.

PS
I should also explain that I'm a storyteller, my wife is an English teacher, without her editing, I sound like an escaped convict myself.

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 20:52:26

>>]If your looking for some excitement, create scenario where the canting keel will come into play and save some lives.... I can't think of an exact scenario, but there are a number of passages in and around some island chains that require a high tide passage, require motoring only or any number of other oddities. If you set the scene so that Ed, the guy who normally works in the library distributing the prison books can save the day with his canted keel or new foil design.

One of the problems they do face is that they will need to beach their boat to load and unload. A swing keel would take care of that problem. I remember seeing an article on the cantering keel and part of my question was to know if they had become standard gear since they were introduced in the DynaFlyer 40.

>>Americas' Cup teams messed with a kite design that flew way out and up in front of the boat. They never quite got it to work so they scrapped it.

I knew that a wing cost us the cup, and I think I understood that, as for the rest, I fear it's above me.

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 21:46:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 How large a vessel are you contemplating in your story and how many people do you invision it'll need to carry?

I'm looking at a maximum capacity of around 100, not counting the crew, for an expected 1500 mile ocean voyage. That would not include the crew, and stacking, like that frequently shown slave ships design, is not practical.

>>For durability, ease of construction by available unskilled labor, and maximum size, I'd opt for a low tech hull designed of wood with plank on frame construction.

They do have the ability to make shiplap or tongue and groove lumber, but extensive shaping is going to be difficult. They aren't under extreme time pressure but it is a factor.

>>For your purposes however, I'd opt for a Chinese junk or some variant, the design of which you could embellish to make it somewhat exotic.

That is an extremely interesting idea. I'd never considered the junk. The only problem would be the hardware again. Plus I don't see an operational crew of larger than 10. They do have plenty of small electric motors, (they are used in cell doors) car batteries, and they have already converted some of the car alternators to wind driven to re-charge batteries. They could install a small car motor, but I don't have a clue about how they could seal the shaft on a wood-hulled vessel other than some sort of well design.

>>The design of galleons during the age of discovery, were based on the shape of a "mackeral" whereas the junks of the same period were fashioned after "ducks" and were much more efficient hulls.

>>While the galleons were more difficult to build and were limited in size to around 65-80 feet, the largest Chinese vessels of the same period ranged up to 350-400 feet in length.

>>The framing for a junk is much simpler to construct as is the planking. In your story you could have your protagonists build one even larger.

You probably have no idea how hard it is to find this sort of information. I'm embarrassed to say how many hours I've spent studying how to build a Viking Knorr, and I think a junk would be easier to build.

>>Your charactors could construct a really huge junk with as many masts as your imagination will allow( they might even lose a few in storms during their passage).

>> Junks will point higher into the wind as well.

On the initial voyage, I'd planned to have the ship lose either a mast or spar. Being non-sailors, they hadn't thought to include extras. They jury rigged using the sweeps. That might have to be changed if they built a small junk. If my memory serves, they did build fairly small junks as well.

edited to add: .......and ditch that Hunter from the story line.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don’t have any love or a special place in my heart for a Hunter. What I need is a sailboat that a corrupt politician might have wasted $300,000.00 upon. I wanted something that was both flashy enough to attract the attention of investigators and not well suited a Texas lake. The Hunter was the first thing I found that seemed to fit the price. Again, when one doesn’t know much about today's sailboats it is very difficult to not sound silly. I have a thing about authors who don't check facts, even something that's a toss out line like the Hunter is.

Thank you so much for your suggestion about the junk, it wasn't.

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 21:50:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug
 CATAMARAN!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought about a cat, but I didn't think inexperienced builders could put one together that would have the capacity to haul 100 people and/or bulk liquid. The structural stress of a cat that size in the open ocean were beyond me... and thus beyond my characters. However, if it can be done easily I'm interested.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 23:56:28

A large multi-maran ( a catamaran with 17 trimarans attached

), built of many individual hulls, connected by the prison bars acting as connecting rods - these connecting rods pivot so the size of the craft can roll with the sea conditions. The many hulls allow for fabrication in the shop and easier transport to the shore, they are then assembled on the water, this gives each group of inmates their own ship when they want to go their own way or no longer want to be part of the group. Because they have only scraps of steel and limited welding fuel and not large sheets of steel but lots of it, they are forced to built smaller hulls.
They use halved steel barrels as sails, the shallow draft allows them to cross over the reef and the detachable sections/hulls allow them to have raiding parties, the small sections/hulls allow them to use the hulls as storage for fuels etc, the small sections allow them to have detachable fishing and scouting sections that rejoin and hook up when the plot calls for it. Because they lack certain expertise each of the sections has its own planned/unplanned/unexpected sailing characteristics and brings about complications for the characters when jealousies etc develop because another has better equipment. You can introduce whatever sailing characteristics you want, its sci-fi. If you want real sci-fi, you should come out to my lake and watch me sail - because sci-fi is when I call my self captain.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 12:23:02

If you've got cars in a parking lot you have tons of steel. Hoods, fenders, etc can easily be cut and bent into shape for the hull. Boat building in steel is very easy. As I said, the hull and deck can be constructed in a few days. The heavy steel doors of the prison would be cut into beams and used to create the keel, stem, and bow post. Light steel tubing from fence posts is used to create a longitidunal frame around these strong points. Steel plate from hoods and fenders is pounded flat, bent to shape, and welded up to make the hull and deck. 10 men could build a 100 foot basic hull in 20 days. Tankage for your crude oil, water, and gas would be built right into the hull. DOn't forget to plan how to launch the boat before you start building. Boats are usually built UPSIDE DOWN then there is a key point when the outer hull is finished and then it IS TURNED OVER. Think this out carefully. A 100 foot steel hull is going to weigh A LOT.

You've got trees for masts and spars. Don't use solid wood. Cut boards and make a square, hollow mast. It should also taper. With all the wire you have it can be held together by steel lashing.

You can use the chain link fence to make galvinized steel cables for standing rigging.

You can salvage a couple of engines from the cars to make motor power for your sail boat. Use automotive drive shafts for propeller shafts. Salvage gasoline from gas tanks. You've got tons of rubber, electrical wires, pipelines, cloth, plastic, steel, aluminum, glass and more in the cars. Wheel hubs and wheels can be cut, bent, curved, and fashioned into propellers.

Sails can be made from animal skin that is beaten or chewed to be thin and flexible. Rawhide would never move a boat. Remember, the sails must be curved, thin, and very light. How do you sew flat pieces of fabric to make a curved, wing-like surface? Thats the sailmakers art. It must be tanned with tannic acid, get it from nuts in the forest. I'd try also to salvage headliners, seats, carpet, and other fabric from the cars, especially to make the headsails.

You would have to make a regular 3 masted type boat as used in the age of discovery with square rigged sailes on booms, plus fore-and-aft sails rigged as jibs and flying jibs on a bowsprit, plus sails rigged between the masts. When sailing downwind, use the square sails, when upwind, furl them and fly the jibs and other fore and aft sails. Gaff rig the aft mast. Gaff rigs are simple, reef easy, sail well downwind and on a reach, and have some windward ability. With all the wood, a gaff rig is very doable. Have someone in the prison who has read a couple of books or seen some movies.

Anchors can be made from axels and other hardended metal.

You need miles and miles of rope. Leather can be used. Also, there are miles and miles of copper wiring inside the cars and the prison. These could be twisted into tough but strong ropes.

Since I work for the San Diego Sheriff and have some intimate knowledge of prisons as well as sailboats, you may write me privately using my forum profile. Also, the prison has hundreds of miles of wire and cable inside it. Certainly there is an electrical system, computer system, network, plumbing. DOn't the prisoners have bedding? What about a kitchen? How are they fed? Our prisons have large industry running inside for laundry, meals, medical, banking, and more. All doors are electrically controled. Locks are magnets. The computer system for running the jail is very complicated.

I suggest you go get a tour of your local County jail, and go visit the US Constitution and Navy Yard in Boston.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 12:48:54

I remember not to long ago of seeing a sailboat that was made up of 50 gallon drums, I dont remember where I think it was on the TV news east coast. These people lived on the boat, and it looked really nice down below. If your setting is in a industral park there could be thousands of these drums laying around. this could give you the basis of where they got the material to build the hull.

Edited by - on

Reb Bacchus
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 15:13:48

One of the problems I have with Hollywood shows like "Lost" is that they underestimate human ingenuity. The posts in this thread amply demonstrate that fact. I haven't watched much of that show, so I might be being unfair to them. However, based on what I've seen they have the resources to build a decent boat and find help. I'm posting a corrected version of the email I sent to JimB517 because these sorts of creative ideas are the sort of thing a writer dreams of finding. I'm probably going to use several of them later, I love the way 55 gallon drums have been used, and it's not impossible to add those to the inventory of what they have. I've gave JimB517 a quick summery (below) because it is important to know that they aren't trying to escape from where they are, but to bring resources to that location.

The basics of book one is that a portion of a maximum-security prison is instantly transported to what appears to be a deserted planet identical to Earth. While "Earth-normal" it does have a different land/ocean set up. I've spent the last 9 years in prison ministry at a unit that has a striking resemblance to the one in my story. I'm a conservative Republican of the Law and Order era. I think it shows God's sense of humor that I've been pushed into prisons.

In the second book they have discovered they are not alone, and are building a boat both to get raw materials, but to kidnap a tribe much like the Romans did to the Sabine women. All the inmates are married, so it's not for rape but rather to start to give them the population needed to build a modern society.

As in any good sci fi, I've tried to make it as realistic as possible and to give the reader action, things to think about, with a few moral dilemmas tossed in. One of my biggest concerns was that I didn't make the inmates, "just like everyone else." I do believe that our criminal justice system is broken, but that doesn't mean I want to see the men I minister to on the streets. By chance, I came across an officer at a maximum-security unit in Kansas who has read the first book. He said he enjoyed it and found the characters realistic. Of course I'm always anxious to have law enforcement folks give me advice. I'm trying not to have stereotypes, and I don't want both the officers and the inmates to appear unreal.

Since they will be building their initial city around their portion of the prison, and it is located in an Juneau Alaska type climate, they are trying to keep as much of the prison intact as possible. The same applies for the cars, they want them for use in the near future. However, it just didn't occur to me that they could use all that rubber for gaskets! The idea of a steel hull does appeal, but I hate to use all that steel and to tear up all those cars. (They have the personal autos the staff used to drive to work. I did give them a Hummer H1 because I saw one once in the parking lot. My real-life unit is only a few miles from Ft. Hood)

Their unit is located about 25 miles from a bay shaped much like Fundy but with tide twice as high. The coast that faces their "Atlantic is about 60 mile to their east. Their fuel is limited, hence the need to find crude oil in pools close to the ocean.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 16:09:36

Cool topic,
have you looked at this web site
http://www.boatdesign.net/
The forums there are something else.

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.