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Help! I am a newbie....

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candria77
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2005 : 20:28:26

I am just getting into sailing and I am about to purchase a 1977 Catalina 25. I have a few questions and I would love to hear any advise on how to pursue this lifelong dream of mine.

1)How many people does it take to operatate this boat? Can it be done alone, or do you need 2. Is it constant attention from two people or is just at certain times such as departure, arrival, changing directions, etc.....

2) I have a 3 year old, is that too young for them to be going sailing?

3) I saw some spotted rust on the the swing keel of this boat, is that big deal or a should I run!?

4) Can anyone recommend the best way to learn how to sail? Recommended organizations?

5) I am getting ready to hire a surveyer to make sure I am not buying a lemon, Anything I should know about this process?

Thanks,

Chris

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 20:52:27

Whew!
My standard suggestion is to take a day and read as far back in the catalina 25 forum as you can get. I went back a year when I got my boat. It is invaluable reading.
As for your questions:

Most of us single hand this boat with ease, it is a question of the rigging of the boat and the water and weather that you sail in. Have a look at my website in my sig. After a summer of practice you will not give single handing a thought, including docking and leaving.

Three is fine, get a jacket with a handle for lifting the kid out of the water and crotch straps to keep the jacket on the kid. When in doubt toss'em down below and put the hatchboards in, they will never get out!

Time on the water. i imagine most of us bought a boat and a book if we came late to sailing. ALL BOATS ARE THE SAME! Any sailing course even Sunfish from the Red Cross will teach you how to sail, after that you just learn to use the rigging of each different boat to apply the same sailing theory.

You are looking at an old boat. All old boats have issues, the question is how hard are they to deal with. A soft deck would scare me, bad hardware, running and standing rigging would not mean much to me; because I would get around to replacing it all anyway. What is a big deal is unique to each of us. This is where reading the forum archive is so important. You will hear what the issues are and hear that most don't scare people much. I suppose the stopper for most of us would be severe structural damage in the swing keel trunk area.

Welcome to the forum.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 21:32:26

Chris,

At the risk of sounding "me too", I fully agree with what Frank and Martha have said. In particular, read back as far in the archives of this forum as you can.

1.) These boats are easy to singlehand. Many, perhaps most, of the participants on this forum singlehand without giving it a second thought. I sailed my 1979 Catalina 25 to the Bahamas and back singlehanded, 750 nautical miles round trip.

3.) The swing keels are all cast iron. They will all have some rust unless/until they are fully encapsulated in epoxy and fiberglass after removing every speck of rust. For now, don't worry about it. It shouldn't be considered a deal breaker.

4.) Take the U. S. Coast Guard sailing course. Take any other inexpensive and readily available sailing course. Read a few how-to-sail books cover to cover, including Chapmans. Hitch rides on other people's sailboats (by far the most cost-effective way to sail

). Then go do it. Start in light air, try to invite level headed experienced crew along.

5.) There are a couple of books out there on surveying fiberglass sailboats. I suggest reading at least one of them. doing so won't make you a surveyor, but it will help you get the most out of your investment when you hire a qualified, experienced, professional surveyor. Also, again, read back as far in the archives of this forum as you can. By doing so, you may be able to encourage the surveyor to concentrate on known problem areas, and spend less time on things that are very seldom wrong with this model boat. Be there when the survey is done. Ask a lot of questions, and take a lot of notes. That's part of what you're paying for. Expect a 20 to 30 page report with photos of the boat and close-ups of any problem areas. If the surveyor declines to closely inspect and evaluate certain parts of the boat, such as rigging, sails, engine, or electrical system, ask yourself if this person is the best available, or if mau you should shop around some more. All surveys are expensive, even worthless ones.

Boats this age (1977) are going to have problems. (All boats do, even new ones.) You are going to become proficient at fixing them. We are going to help you.

Now get busy!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 22:30:16

I started several years ago by joining a local yacht club and participating in their twice weekly evening races. Skippers are always looking for crew and it put me immediately in touch with expertise, different boats and situations that would I would not have otherwise encountered. There are some excellent articles in the Tech section on selecting ang surveying a C25.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/summertm.html

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/summert2.html

Finaly, continue to use this forum freely. I have found this to be the best assortment of knowledge, advice, and realy caring boaters anywhere.

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 22:38:54

Chris - My wife and I just started sailing two years ago, loved it, then bought a '79 Catalina 25 because we loved the one our friends took us sailing on...now we own one, and yes it has problems, but we've fixed most of them ourselves, and we're having a blast this our first season with it.
How I wish I knew of this forum a year ago, in your position! It will be invaluable to you, as will a surveyor (smart move) and starting out slowly with an older boat. I learned most of what I know by reading everything I've gotten my hands on. There's not a LOT of sailors here in Nebraska, but I've been lucky to sail with friends in Lake Michigan and Southern California. Those ride-alongs were invaluable learning tools.
The best advice - when you have a question, ask! You're off to a great start!

Paul

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 22:41:10

PS: those two links that Derek sent above were extremely helpful when we shopped and bought our Cat 25 last fall. Take good heed of the advice therein!

Paul

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2005 : 23:21:15

First, you found the right kind of boat...its a good boat for a beginner. As you'll see in this website, we love our C25s.
Second, if you don't know boats, make sure your surveyor is suited to your needs.

When I hired a surveyor last fall and subsequently bought my '81 C25, I spoke with half a dozen surveyors before I decided on one. The surveyor I hired was willing to do his normal survey and then be available when I negotiated with the seller. The standard survey on a small sailboat includes a cursory check of rigging and sails.
I would suggest being prepared to spend a little extra money on a more idepth survey which would include the motor, sails, all the rigging (both standing and running), safety equipment, and a detailed check of all the swing keel hardware (bolts, brackets, cable, trunk)
When I hired my surveyor, I printed out all of the technical specs for the boat, so that the surveyor knew where to direct his attention...he may not admit it, but he'll be grateful that you did your due dilligence especially when it comes to the moving parts of a swing keel.
Surveyors usually have a minimum charge and/or charge by the foot... so a 25 foot sailboat doesn't represent a big payday for busy surveyors - I paid an extra $100 so my guy would treat it with a little more respect instead of a time filler on the way to a better paying gig.
Third - There is a lot of valuable information here, take the time to read the old topics and the technical specs. I'm still a newbie and I have a great deal of respect for the time the old salts take to dumb things down for me. (honest guys, I do my best to ask intelligent questions!!!)

Edited by - on

candria77
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 06:56:07

All I can say is wow. I cannot believe the unbelievable support everyone here is giving. Thank you so much, it really feels like you guys are a family and take care of your own. Thank you so much for all the information. I felt very uneasy in getting into this, but everyone who responded have made me feel much more comfortable. I think I am going to higher the surveyer today, and if all is well make an offer this week.

Thanks again to all, See you on the open water!

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 07:30:20

Candria,
I am a marine surveyor. If you have any trouble finding one or are unsure of qualifications or what they mean post your questions and I will try to help. BTW where are you located an more importantly where is the boat. Dave

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 09:41:53

me too too,
we started sailing about a year ago and bought a C25 last August. We have a 2.5 year old now. We posted here and at trailer sailor (lots of kids there).

At first they don't like the life vest, the healing, the motion, the commotion (e.g. she'd start crying everytime we tacked because we shouted instructions to each other, tacked hard and sheeted fast; now we talk softly and tack slowly) and you'll be anxious when they try to climb out (they will) and when steppign on the boat. you and they get used to it all.

once they are old enough that their attantion span reaches out to other boats on the water, you're all set. As I posted earlier, she also does nto seem to get sea sick (knock on wood), she played int he V-birth underway with waves and all. We set the rules from day one: life vest before going on the dock and life vect unless she is down below. Now she knows good things happen when she puts on the life vest. If she gets bored down below she start putting on her ife vest. She is almost at a point where she'll stay put while we set sails, etc.

you'll love it.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 09:42:47

B4 someone gets to if first, it's "heeling" not "healing", although sailing heals my soul.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 18:17:21

I commend everyone for the excellent answers, I have nothing more to add except have fun with the experience. I'd say all should be advanced to master mariner consultant

Edited by - on

cclark
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 21:16:22

The only things I would add to the above remarks regarding sailing with a three year old;
1. If you don't know how to sail, get comfortable yourself with sailing before taking her out. If you want to motor around for an hour or two to give her a taste of the water, fine, but don't try sailing with her until you can LOOK calm doing it. They pick up a lot from your emotions.
2. I would highly recommend a teather. Spencer wears one attached from the base of the stairs to the back of his life jacket whenever we are sailing (in your case I would say anytime the boat is moving) The line is long enough that he can get anywhere in the cockpit and most anywhere down below with the line attached. When he is below, we also allow him to take the jacket off.

Edited by - on

George Beck
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2005 : 21:38:30

Newbie, you never mentioned where you are sailing. If it is close to S. Ohio you can bum a ride on my single handed for effect. Actually quite easy. Bottom line is trial and error, push yourself little each time out or at least that is how I did it. Congrats on your choice of boat, that is half the battle you have won.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2005 : 08:43:58

Do you have any pointers on introducing the tether? The few times we tried it turned into an exercise in fighting the tether rather than sailing. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cclark
 2. I would highly recommend a teather. Spencer wears one attached from the base of the stairs to the back of his life jacket whenever we are sailing (in your case I would say anytime the boat is moving) The line is long enough that he can get anywhere in the cockpit and most anywhere down below with the line attached. When he is below, we also allow him to take the jacket off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Adam Vaughan - Mimarac
Deckhand

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Canada
3 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2005 : 11:54:31

I can't help you with the swing keel stuff but as for sailing with young children here are some of my experiences;

- My 7 yr old daughter has been sailing on my boat since she was six months old. She's developed great sea legs. When she was a toddler and learning to walk she was content to sit in a car seat that rested on the sole of the cockpit. We anchored the seat to a pair of eyebolts enstalled just under the cabin doorway.

- Later when she wanted to take over tiller duties, we stitched a harness into her life jacket and used the same bolts with a tether to keep her safe. The harness could also be attached to a shorter loop like tether and hooked over and through the winward cleat so she could sit on the cockpit seats. Most of the hardware except for the bolts was bought at a camping/mountain climbing store.

- Then there are the rules. Under no circumstance is she allowed to play on the cabin ladder. "Up or down" is the rule even at dock. Nop jumping - ever. Never play with sheets and lines in use( it's the crews job to store them away from temptation... sometimes a litle spare rope is the best distraction.). And finally the obvious one lifejacket on at all times. When she turned five and swam a width of the pool and climbed up the swim ladder on her own I let her take it of when in the cabin even while at sea.

- I also never take her out without another adult on board. Aftyer a near miss with a 30 foot tree in the middle of Lake Ontario in raging September a storm I've also considered carrying a inflatable life raft for longer trips.

Other than that sailing has been great and it's simple enough that she's learning all the basics... one more thing, she loves standing up in the V-berth while under sail with her spy glass.... who says all pirates are boys!

Edited by - on

candria77
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2005 : 17:20:28

Great advise on the children, thank you. I am sailing out of Beverly, Mass though I live in Gloucester, MA. I couldnt get a slip there, and I am not doing the trailer thing. Ohio is a bit off, but thanks! I met a skipper down at the marina that will charge 65/hr to take me out on my boat and teach me. I also have a yacht club next door that charges 165 for 3 weeks of sailing lessons. I might do 1 or both of those. I am picking up some books that some people from here recommended, and I am going to sign up for the coast gaurd course. That sounds like that is a good plan to get started. I have my surveyer coming tomorrow at 3PM, so if all goes well I will be joining the Cat 25 owners circle tomorrow night! After that I will then have to sail (or motor) the boat up 1/2 mile from the place where its being stored to my slip. I may higher that skipper to do that with me too!

I will let everyone know what happens after that....

thanks again to all.....

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2005 : 20:52:20

i think the 25 can feel like a boat bigger than it is... in my situation, i think it is a bit much to single hand... however, this is because i sail in shallow water. even my harbor has a shoal about 20 ft behind my boat... and i am unable to turn my turning my outboard motor (mine has been frozen since i got the boat)... i wouldn't go out by myself until i got a real good feel for the boat and can handle all the surprises can be tossed at you (esp docking)... i have no doubt taht it can usually be done with ease and confidence, but i wouldn't jump into singlehanding it 'till you feel you are ready

Edited by - on

cclark
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2005 : 21:21:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 Do you have any pointers on introducing the tether? The few times we tried it turned into an exercise in fighting the tether rather than sailing. [quote]Originally posted by cclark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't really. Spencer started when he was 1.5 yrs and has gone out infrequently. He doesn't necessarily like the tether, but I just say this is one of those battles that I always win, like getting him in his car seat when he doesn't want to go. It seems that once he understands that there isn't any options if he wants to come up into the cockpit, he usually deals with it.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 11:30:02

Wow! $65/hr for lessons on your boat! The going rate in San Diego is $25/hr or $125 for all day.

Let me see, fly here, spend the weekend with Catalina 25 Fleet 7, I'll give you lessons for free - and I can promise you more time on the water than you can stand - fly home. Probably cheaper than a weekend with your local Captain.

In 2 lessons with me you will: learn to go into and out of the slip 100 times, tack, gybe, sail around a course of bouys, run offshore, find the dolphins, toast the sunset with your favorite beverage, sail back into the slip. Day 2 you will single hand my boat all over while I enjoy the beverage. Also I will make sure you know how to heave-to and anchor single handed. Plus if 2 days on my boat doesn't sell you on roller furling and autopilots, I've failed!

If you have a 3rd day we will fly the spinnaker and learn how to use the whisker pole for downwind sailing.

You can learn the basics of sailing a C25 in 2 days. Racing, navigation, rules-of-the-road, anchoring, long distance cruising, getting into and out of a dinghy ... these take a lifetime.

-JimB

Edited by - on

bobmac
1st Mate

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USA
47 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 12:38:36

Geez Jim, is that an open offer for anyone ?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 17:13:47

No, its not really an open offer for anyone, however, if you are a bonafide member of this National Association I will take you sailing when you come to San Diego. We can do all that stuff, it just won't be a "lesson".

I was really shocked at the price quoted to Chris. There are cheaper ways. I'll bet a member in your area would be glad to help teach.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 17:38:42

Chris - if I was in your shoes I'd take Jim up on that offer in a heartbeat! He is a very competent (expert even!) sailor.
Derek

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candria77
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 18:20:31

Jim, I might just do that! Bad news, I am kind of bummed, the surveyer told me this boat is in real bad shape, so I backed out of the deal. Hull has very small cracks, deck has water damage, the thing that the mast goes into, I think its called the step, has cracks around it, probably from water damage. I am bummed that I am not an ownerr yet, but i am relieved that I didnt buy a lemon. Back to the net to find me a good boat.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 20:12:18

Chris, <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...surveyer told me this boat is in real bad shape,... deck has water damage,... relieved that I didnt buy a lemon. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wise move. Rotten deck core is one of the used boat problems I would be hesitant to take on, even if the boat was priced nearly free. Of course delaminated decks can be repaired, but it's an unbelievable headache to do so, and very difficult to get the repair to come out looking like the boat wasn't butchered.

Paying hundreds for a survey on a boat you decide not to own after you see the report is still money well spent. I hope you learned as much as you could about the boat buying process from this. You'll get better at spotting deal-breaking problems as you continue to shop for a boat. With this practice, you will also get better at recognizing, and jumping on, a fantastic bargain when one pops up.

Hang in there. Just keep reminding yourself, "Catalina build thousands of this model. A C-25 with the right combination of price and condition for me is out there waiting to be found."

If you'd like some more reading to do while you search (in addition to a book on surveying), I highly recommend "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. It explains in a very readable style how to fix up a typical neglected but salvagable older fiberglass sailboat in the coastal cruiser size range. Reading about repair techniques can help you answer the inevidable reoccurring question, "Is this repair something I can do, or would I regret having taken it on?"

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2005 : 21:10:05

As to the price of sailing lessons, they get $70 an hour up here on the lake and you have to schedule well in advance. It's the short sailing season in New England that does it and the general attitude that if you own a boat you have money to throw away.

Chris, what were they asking for that boat? And how did you get a slip in
Beverly, I thought the waiting list was years long! That's why I'm looking in Maine. I may go as far north as Portland next year.

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