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Clunking and Humming along...

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ksaubier
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/15/2005 : 09:29:42

I'm a new boat owner and since I've been having a good time laughing at my self while I work out the kinks, I thought I'd share some notes from my first day on the water this summer. Bought a 1980 swing keel last summer but only got out on it a few times briefly to check things out and make a list of what needed fixing and replacing, etc. The motor was the #1 thing needing to be replaced, plus a new 4-spring mount, and then some wiring and miscellaneous things made the list. Not really a big deal, but I was able to get my upgrades done and I felt ready for the water.

Taking the boat out under motor (with my new Nissan 9.8 which is awesome by the way), I lower the keel some so I can put up the sails, and I hear a buzzing/humming noise that is pretty loud. Dang I think... what the heck is that, as I start checking to make sure we aren't taking on water. ha ha ha, must be the keel cable vibrating, wow I don't like that. My wife is at the tiller and she doesn't hear it too much so she laughs at me saying I'm paranoid, but since I'm right by the cable I can hear it very well... kind of a scary sound I think if you've never heard it. You can even feel the vibration from it. I lower the keel all the way down and it seems to be getting worse, so I try to get a little bit of slack in the cable so it'll stop when the tension gets relieved. This seems to help some. Things seem to be going ok, and I know if the cable breaks with the keel down it's not as big a deal. Later on we get some nasty clunking from the keel when dealing with some of the heavy wakes of the huge weekend powerboats. Overall it was a great day to be out sailing, but I have to say it can be hard to relax when I hear the potentially damaging clunk of my keel and the buzzing reminder of what can happen if that cable breaks, etc. It got me thinking that while I had the boat out over the winter I should have replaced the cable and all the hardware, and removed the "clunk". Not sure I want to deal with that thought all summer... but I guess I'll have to because I don't want to haul out and spend half the summer getting the work done. Does anybody think that the clunking and buzzing is "normal"? How concerned should I be?

ha ha ha

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 10:29:26

get used to it, thats the sound of normal operations on a swinger.

Some folks will probably jump in here with some tips to minimize the sounds.

The cable, winch, and turning ball should be inspected every 2 years.

I love my fin.

Edited by - on

ksaubier
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 11:21:18

Thanks for the reassurance, I figured it was common to have some noise and I'll keep sailing her.

In regards to cranking the keel up and down, it's easy to tell when it's all the way down for me because the cable goes slack. This may be a stupid question, but what do people do to tell when it's all the way up? Count the rotations of the crank handle, or just crank until it "stops"?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 11:25:18

Approximately 35 turns to the top. I have a cross bar that connects my slip fingers and it must be cleared, I put 15 cranks on mine every time I come in and let them out every time I sail. If I could I would leave it all the way down, I see no reason to haul it all the way up.

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 16:49:31

The humming is ok. As folks have noted, the faster you go the louder it hums - which is the reason I don't mind it at all. The clunking maybe be "normal" but it is not really ok. It wears out the keel pin and the keel itself and stresses the trunk. Next pull-out you should address it. At the least, put in washers to eliminate space between keel and keel castings, and attach shims on the sides to reduce space between keel and keel trunk (see many prior dissertations on these topics).

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 16:58:59

If I might add - you mentioned you "lower the keel some" - I'm of the opinion that with a swing keel, the keel needs to be all the way down anytime the boat is underway. Exception being getting in and out of the slip or shallow waters. I have some buds that motor about with the keel up trying to save some drag. This is where I find the keel clunking about and the boat tends to crab quite a bit even under power.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 18:00:21

My SK had 28 rotations - full-up to full-down. Maybe the PO put a shorter cable on her. I sort of enjoyed the keel hum as it meant to me that I was making way at a reasonable speed.

Gotta admit I'm thrilled with the wing keel now just because it gets too friggin' hot here in south Florida to be down in the cabin cranking the keel up and down. I'd feel like passing out by the time I was done lowering (or worse, raising) that s.o.b. in the middle of August.

Steve

Edited by - on

__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 18:57:49

You know I was thinking of the same thing since I took it out this weekend... I also had this humming sound from the boat... I thought we were somehow running into some sand at first... as a newbie I discovered that once you bring the keel up or down half a turn the sound goes away...

The other thing that I am starting to realize (from looking at images)... that my motor is about 2 inches in the water when Im out sailing... but some have it all the way out of the water... could it be the fan on the motor making the noise as it sweeps in the water??? Check out the below images.... Leo

Edited by - __Leo__ on 06/15/2005 19:07:00

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2005 : 23:36:23

I like the hum - it's like shifting gears when she speeds up!
As for the motor - I alway get it all the way out of the water while under sail, and while parked.

Edited by - on

dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2005 : 08:23:04

The hum's normal . . . My swinger (78, #800) NEVER 'clunks'. The keel is RARELY raised as I am in a deep freshwater slip and have lots of anchorages with adequate depth. Expect the hum, Inspect the clunk.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2005 : 10:03:07

Ditto to much, but not all, of the above. Clunking, respectfully, is not "normal." My keel clunked when I first bought the boat because the Previous Owner had never replaced the keel hardware. Once I replaced the hangers -- which can be done easily in one day by people who know what they're doing -- the keel clunked no more. The danger from "clunking" is that it is probably caused by sideways movement of the keel, which could possibly damage the keel trunk and crack the bottom of the boat. It might even loosen the keel hangers themselves. If those give way, it could ruin a whole day's sail. If I were you I'd at least have the boat lifted and inspected. You can order the keel hanger set from Catalina or Catalina Direct. If you're going to haul and have the work done, replace the pennant (cable) and turning ball at the same time: it will save you money to do all the work in one haul. Again, we're talking about one day for everything.

A couple of hundred dollars is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Some folks like the hum, others don't. On my boat, if there's any humming, I want it to come from me, not the keel. And I prefer to have the motor completely out of the water unless it's running: less drag, less noise, and less fouling.

As soon as depth permits, put the keel fully down and leave it there. The boat will be stiffer (less tippy). On the other hand, I'm an advocate of following the Catalina instructions to raise the keel at dock or on a mooring (especially if you are in salt water). There are many, many postings arguing this matter in the archives (so let's not rehearse them here).

Count how many rotations it takes to go from full up to full down. When raising the keel, slow down your cranking when you get close to the magic number for your boat, and stop when the keel is snug. I've found that the number changes, for some reason, every time I change the pennant. It can't be because of the length of the pennant -- the distance from the winch drum to the lowered keel is a constant, regardless of how much pennant is left on the drum. Whatever!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 06/16/2005 10:19:55

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2005 : 17:13:09

Brooke, you say Catalina recopmmends to raise the keel when mooring. I am not sure that's good. CD says to LOWER the keel when moored or tied up. The reasons they give also make a lot of sense to me: (a) the boat moves less (b) keel and boat move as "one", especially if you have shims on the keel (which I strongly recommend), therefore less wear and tear, and finally (c) peace of mind (if the unspeakable happened, i.e. cable parts, the boat won't sink). One caveat: after having the keel down, give the handle a lttle turn to tighten up the cable so it won't flop around loose (to avoid a break at the swage due to metal fatigue).

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2005 : 21:33:12

Yes, I know what CD says. The Creator (Frank Butler) says otherwise in the instruction manual, and I'll trust him first. Check the archives for this discussion. My boat has been in salt water for 20 years with the keel up, and it's on only its third pennant and set of hanger hardware (the PO never changed them for the first 13 years -- not recommended, but a testimony to keeping the keel up nonetheless). My argument is that in salt water, keeping the keel up keeps most of the pennant out of the water, thus prolonging its life. I also believe the keel moves less when snug in the trunk in the up position: the condition of my keel is witness.

However, this argument has been dealt with ad infinitum et ad nauseum elsewhere. Read the archives, and let's let it rest on this thread.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 06/16/2005 21:37:36

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2005 : 09:48:28

To stop the humming, just loosen the cable by turning the winch one or two extra cranks CCW after the keel reaches the full down position. On my former swinger, hull no. 1205, the number of cranks to raise or lower the keel was 28, same as Steve Madden reports. If Frank Hopper's keel winch is really using 35 turns, it may be an aftermarket winch with a smaller diameter drum than the Catalina/Fulton OEM winch (or else Frank is just rememberinmg wrong, and his keel winch is actually 28 turns). I am firmly in the "keel down when moored" camp. The idea that you get any real benefit from raising the keel, to "keep more of the pennant out of the salt water", doesn't "hold water" (pun intended), because even with the keel raised all the way, the lower swage fitting at the end of the cable is still fully submerged. It is this fitting that is almost always the failure point when someone has a free-fall keel accident, and by hauling the keel, all you are doing is keeping it under stress all the time, you are NOT keeping it out of contact with salt water! The normal water line of the boat is at least 3 or 4 inches above the turning ball, which is why that piece of radiator hose is needed, so you can see that no matter how high you raise the keel, that lower swage fitting on the pennant is always underwater. Don't leave your keel raised on a mooring, or in your slip, unless your berth is in such shallow water that you have no choice.

Edited by - on

ksaubier
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2005 : 22:52:28

Ok, thanks everyone for all the info. My wife and I went for a sail today and the weather here in Maryland was great, nice winds... great day all around. I played around with the cable tension and I was able to eliminate the humming of the cable. I still get concerned with the clunk, but it didn't seem too bad while out sailing. When I got back to the mooring I had cranked the keel all the way up since I don't know yet how shallow it can get at low tide... I've only been on this mooring for a week now since moving the boat there from my old location. I'd hate to think that if I left it down it could bury in the muddy bottom on a low tide causing more damage as the boat rocked around... so for now I leave it up at the mooring.

As we sat at mooring with the keel up I could hear a clunk from time to time, and that really bothered me thinking that while up it shouldn't have that much side to side movement. We were relaxing at the mooring and packing up our stuff to close up the boat and my curiousity wouldn't let me leave without checking it out more. This might sound a little silly to some, but I swam under the boat and grabbed the keel... it was in fact all the way up. 28 cranks I think is about right. But while I had ahold of it, I noticed I could actually move it side to side and make it clunk without much force (I was under water holding it with one hand and I could feel and hear it clunk as I moved it). My wife was on the boat and confirmed when I surfaced. It felt to me like I could move the keel over an inch side to side, and that's what it's doing as it rocks around there in the water. I'm gonna have to order some parts and get this fixed I think, or it'll drive me crazy listening to it clunk all summer. When I bought the boat I liked the idea of the swing keel, but now I'm not sure it was a good choice. Extra maintenance, big heavy moveable object, still needs 5 feet of water to sail in. I love the boat and the way it sails, but since I don't own a trailer (or ever plan to trailer the boat) I'm not wild about the swing keel. I'd rather be able to sail in 4 feet of water and not have to mess with anything.

-Ken

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2005 : 08:21:29

Ken, if you have the keel hangers and pin replaced, that will probably solve most of your problems. The hangers sold by Catalina Direct are made a little too tight to actually fit, and need to be machined/ground down to size. That's a good thing -- the intent is to fit tightly against the keel and reduce or eliminate the kind of wobble you're experiencing. The only complication comes when the hole through the keel has become enlarged or distorted because of the wobble: in that case you have to have the hole bored out and a bushing inserted so the pin will fit snugly.

My swing keel has sat year-round in the lower Chesapeake (York River, Virgnia Eastern Shore, and Rappahannock) for many years without incident. I appreciate the swing keel -- I bought it for getting in and out of our shallow Eastern Shore creek. With the keel up, I can practically beach the boat. If I run aground with the keel down, a few turns on the winch sets me free. The Chesapeake is so shallow, especially in its tributaries, that I have found the swing keel a distinct advantage. I've also found that shallow slips are cheaper than deep water slips, which saves me lots of money at my home marina. And when I'm visiting another marina for the night, there are often three foot depth berths when all the others are filled.

I have no doubt that the wing keels are great, but converting to one costs three to four thousand dollars. I can replace the keel hangers and have my keel sanded and repainted every two or three years eight to ten times for the same amount of money. That's sixteen to thirty years worth of sailing -- I'm betting on the latter interval based on the last eight years of owning this boat -- and I'm not going to worry about this keel when I'm 83.

Replace the hangers and go sailing. Everyone gets buyer's remorse. The more you sail (after you fix the keel) the more you'll appreciate what a great boat the C25 is -- as I told mine yesterday running wing and wing back up the Rappahannock using my new whisker pole.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 06/19/2005 08:22:40

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2005 : 15:14:23

Ken,

The clunking you hear while the keel is in the up position is normal. Keep in mind that the keel is using a little less than a third of the keel trunk to keep the keel snug. An inch of movement would not concern me when the keel is up. The best indication is as Brooke said - the condition of the pin and keel hangers along with the hole on the keel. Now if you hear the clunking while underway at a decent speed and not standing around with the boat bobbing about in the waves - then you should really take care of this. By the way - I wouldn't recommend shaking a questionale keel while underwater...

I'm not sure where in the Chesapeake you are - but one really good recommendation I have is to find a marina with a Dry Sail option. This is a couple of hundred bucks cheaper than a slip and your boat is out of the water when not in use. This is great for any maintenance you need to do on the boat plus you've just extended the life of the swing keel system well past whatever time frame you're keeping the boat, since the boat is out of the water and the keel is not swinging about when not in use.

By the way - for the Chesapeake, the swing keel comes in incredibly handy. Nothing sweeter than raising the keel a couple of cranks if you run aground - and away we go!

I wouldn't get too freightened with all this advise - but for piece of mind you might want to haul it out and glance at it. You can visibly inspect everything when out of the water and hey - if need be then go ahead and replace hardware at that time.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2005 : 23:41:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Esteban
 Ken,

recommendation I have is to find a marina with a Dry Sail option. This is a couple of hundred bucks cheaper than a slip and your boat is
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree - mast-up dry storage can be a very nice option: it's 30% to 50% less expensive than a slip to begin with, you don't have to paint the bottom, which saves you another $300/year, your boat insurance premiums may be lower, and you have the peace of mind of knowing that your boat can't sink in her slip due to an unforseen failure of a thru-hull, sudden storm, or other similar problem. Of course, you have to have your boat on a trailer, and you have to own a heavy-duty tow vehicle, if you will be ramp launching, or a cradle if lanching from a travel lift, and that's probably pretty expensive. Around here, a haulout in a trvel lift costs about $150 each time.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 06:24:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The clunking you hear while the keel is in the up position is normal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I completely disagree. After I replaced my keel hangers and pin the first time, clunking in either the up or down position disappeared.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:40:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The clunking you hear while the keel is in the up position is normal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I completely disagree. After I replaced my keel hangers and pin the first time, clunking in either the up or down position disappeared.

Brooke
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would think clunking in the down position should be very seldom, in the up position I think it is normal. I do not see how a hand built fiberglass trunk could have tolerances such that there would be no slop when the head is not fully engaged in the trunk head. I suppose that after a complete rebuild the side to side slide along the pin could be removed with shims and such but you can bet Catalina Yachts did not hand fit those keels like that at the factory!

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:54:51

I agree on the disagreement of my agreement. Look - I don't think an inch of play when the keel is in the up (horizontal) position is of any concern. An inch of play is well within any Industrially Acceptable Tolerance levels set forth by Catalina - if they even have any. I'm sure that a complete replacement of all the hardware and taking advantage of the aftermarket products like shims will probably eliminate any clunking - initially. I would almost bet however - that Frank did make design allowances for normal wear and tear. This system was designed to last a number of years with good care and maintenance. It's not the space shuttle folks, and it's not a prizzy boat either. It's a reasonably well made (hand built) boat. I really doubt that every single swing keel out there has absoloutely no play whatsoever; otherwise the vast majority of them would be underwater somewhere.

On the issue of Dry Sail. I don't remember exactly how much - But I think I paid roughly $1200 to $1400 for the season. The boat sits on a craddle when not in use and can be taken in and out of the water as many times as I want without charge. I can call them Friday night and ask them to put the boat in the water - I arrive Saturday and it's already in the slip. When I'm done they take it out usually the next day and put it back on the craddle. Weekdays they ask for a two hour notice - weekends they have sufficient staff to put it in the water within 20 minutes of asking. This is great for maintenance, no need to bottom paint and no need to worry about storms. By the way - when on the craddle, the keel is lowered on to wood shoring to keep the weight off the hull and stress off the cable. Sweet huh?

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 16:31:01

All I can say is come to Urbanna and listen to my keel. I'm not saying there isn't any play at all. However, with hangers in tight and the keel pulled up tight against the hull, my keel doesn't move enough to clunk. It DID clunk the first year I had the boat -- all the keel hardware was 13 years old and had sat in salt water year round. Since then I've replaced the hardware every three years; I sail pretty much every weekend about six months per year; the boat sits overboard with the keel UP at the dock year-round (oh, let's not go there . . . ), and for the last seven years there's not been clunk one even when some big stinkpotter roars past and rocks my boat violently. Maybe my boat is exceptional, maybe I've lost all my low-frequency hearing, or maybe it doesn't clunk.

OK, I promise not to flog this poor horse any longer.

Brooke

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 17:20:36

just to correct some misunderstandings: Frank, the shims I am referring to are attached to the front end of the keel (not at the pin) where the keel slides into the trunk. That eliminates any space when keel is down. Esteban, the shaking of the keel was not intended to be done "underwater".
If you put the shims on and additionally eliminate any space between keel and hangers at the pin (by either adding washers or installing new hangers), you should have no clunk in either the up or down position (assuming your keel hole is in ok condition).

Edited by - on

ksaubier
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:04:14

Hey, thanks everybody for sharing their opinions and things, I think this has been a good discussion here. This forum along with Catalina Direct are a big part of why I own a Catalina 25. I know it really isn't a big deal to replace a few parts and keep sailing, and members will help me if I have questions. Besides... my wife is in love with our boat after refinishing all the teak and completely cleaning the entire interior, and I like the way the boat sails. 2 weekends ago we were wing on wing with the whisker pole, and that was a first for me on this boat. It was surprisingly comfortable and we made better time that way than I thought we could. A trick a friend showed me...we tied a line from the end of the boom forward to the bow pulpit to make sure a shift in wind or accidental change in course wouldn't bring the boom back across and "clear the deck". Ok, some of you may be chuckling at my inexperience but I felt cool at the time and we were making excellent speed for that tack.

I went ahead and ordered some parts from Catalina Direct, knowing that if I don't get a chance to replace the stuff this summer on a weekend haul-out, then I'll do it over the winter. My guess is most of these things are due to be replaced soon anyway. Heck, I even bought the 2 videos they sell hoping they'll have some good info.

Keel Hanger Casting Kit
Keel Centering Spacer Kit
Keel Turning Ball
Keel Cable
Keel Lifting bracket retrofit assembly

I think there was a few other miscellaneous things C.D. recommended too, and it was about $300 total.

-Ken

Edited by - on

dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:38:33

The line from boom forward is referred to as a 'preventer' and is a really good idea. I will often move the vang from the base of the mast to a forward stanchion base.

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 22:16:52

A preventer is a good idea, but try to tie it to a cleat or something more solid than a stanchion base - those can loosen and leak more easily.

Edited by - on

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