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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Ad Absurdum (?): Keel

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JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/17/2005 : 14:26:58

Up or down when moored/docked assuming there is wave action and water deep enough for keel deployment? Yes this has been discussed umpteenth times but my archive search did not produce a conclusive answer, and for me and maybe many other swing keel owners it is important because the safety of our boats may depend on getting it right. So, please bear with me in my quest for an answer. The main arguments for "UP" (apparently supported by Catalina at one time) are (a) cable life is prolonged and (b) keel movement, relative to hull, is reduced. CD's opinion in favor of "DOWN" on the other hand is (a) boat a whole moves less and - surprisw (b) keel movement, relative to hull, is reduced.
I somewhat discount the cable argument because the point of cable failures in most cases appears to be close to or just inside the swage fitting which is underwater even in a fully raised state (besides, it is cheap insurance to replace the cable every two years). Item (b) is IMO far more imporatant considering that the boat is in constant motion for long periods of time. I guess everyone agrees that the 1500 lbs should be married to the hull as tighly as possible to reduce wear and stress and possibly resulting costly damage (I've been there and paid for it). Catalina and CD appear to differ on the method. Which is the "more correct most of the time"? If that can be answered then the UP or Down question is settled, at least in my mind.
Please, join me in a field trial. The next time your swinger hangs in a sling give the keel a good shake, in both the up and the down position, and note the relative movements. Send me your observation at "jklaube@worldnet.att.net" (I'll do my own observation this fall haul-out), together with info: (1) are there shims epoxied on the sides of the keel? (2) is there any gap between the keel and the keel pin hanger castings? (3) if known, what is the condition of the keel hole (snug pin fit or enlarged hole)? I will note the results on this forum if they yield any useful info.

Joerg
2002C250 WK "BerLyn"

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2005 : 15:48:10

Another consideration:

Mooring with the keel down on early C25 models will result in a bow-down attitude and the cockpit, side decks etc. won't drain.

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SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2005 : 16:26:40

The former boat had a swinger. I always left the keel down on the mooring. Two reasons. I was always a bit nervous of going up and down with such a heavy object, that if it did let go would more than likely cause great damage. The second is that being on a mooring with the keel down the boat acted more like a "Stink-pot" <- (thats a power boat!), and would act as a bobber and swing much more. With the keel down it added more lateral stability which inturn would diminish the "Swing" on the mooring. I replaced the cable, winch and associated componentsbut still never felt quite comfortable going up and down. My vote would be to leave it down.

SJ

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2005 : 18:24:11

my wing keel.

Steve

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2005 : 21:40:20

If I could leave mine DOWN I would! But I can't, slip is too shallow (on the other hand if it deploys, it may not deploy all the way). If I could replace mine with a wing, I would! But not until someone adds to my pension! Fair winds, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2005 : 23:12:19

I'm not a swinger, but I'll suggest that regarding Catalina's vs. Catalina Direct's opinions: If the opinion from Catalina Yachts is in the original owner's manual, that was written a long time ago, when Catalina had relatively little experience with the long-term effects of either option. Catalina Direct has become the defacto "factory support" for the C-25, and speaks with the benefit of more history and more data. I'd lean toward their opinion, unless I found that to this day Catalina Yachts still believes otherwise. (They may even have changed their minds--if they are conscious of the issue at all.)

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2005 : 00:56:30

I'm a swinger with my 79 and have spent 18 seasons on a mooring in fresh water and since then at a dock. Just went through checking pin and spacing after help from the forum. Have been in salt water on cruises for 10 seasons for a month. Always keep the keel down and use carpet on keel to reduce movement, got idea way back from article in Mainsheet about 22's. This last time added spacers made from WM cutting board to reduce space for play. Also upgraded fitting from CD for cable attachment to keel and used Permatex #2 again as had no trouble with bolt threads after 25 years and torqued each bolt. Was able to use brass shim stock around pin with permatex on outside and neversieze between pin and shim stock. Hole wear appeared to be uniform so wondered if there was any wear. Pin appeared to have no wear and with a plastic sleeve drove pin back into keel with shim. Have been sailing boat in fair winds and will be pulling out boat after the 4th for a cruise to the NW. Will check keel and report back. I have always been able to move keel back and forth when on trailer with half of the weight resting on trailer. The weight on pin is half when on trailer or cable which allows more movement so with keel down all the weight is on pin and movement is reduced. We have knocked down 3 times during racing which had me checking the keel after putting boat back on trailer and never found any problem and this in races 15 years ago. Very curious to see the keel this next month to see the results of my maintenance. Have replaced the cable once but want to start a two year replacement schedule. Has anyone used the keel pin upgrade hardware from CD? Does anyone use the carpet on the keel?

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2005 : 08:19:55

Fortunately my keel has very little play.
I keep my boat in salt water, and the growth (accumulating on the bottom) around here is significant.
I used to keep my keel down.
One time I hauled the boat out (no trailer or beefy pickup, I have to use marina facilities) and my cable looked more like a fuzzy pine tree than a shiny cable.
It was easy to see why speed deteriorated.

I told you we get growth around here.
So from then on I leave my keel up so I <b>don't </b>get growth on the cable.

I have zincs on my keel and I replaced my cable a few months ago.
(I've owned my boat 3 years).

I personally haven't noticed much difference in boat motion keel up versus keel down.

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2005 : 16:45:22

I keep my boat in fresh water, and I have very little "keel knock". After three years, my zincs are nearly un-touched and the keel cable looks pretty shiny. Even so, I keep the keel down except when shallow water necessitates raising it. I appreciate the flexibility of a swing keel, but I worry about the catastrophic consequences of a cable break--or cable attachment. I'd be worried constantly if the keel were up all the time.

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bjoyce
1st Mate

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51 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2005 : 19:13:11

Our boat had suffered a cable break while at a slip. The PO had to crank it up to get it the slip so they would leave it up until their next sail, makes sense. One day the cable gave way and the keel swung down. Witnesses at the dock said it was loud and the boat rocked fore and aft. Today we are still haunted by that event that took place a decade ago. It is in need of some repair. With fear of that happening again and making it even worse, we leave it down.

Barry

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2005 : 21:06:16

Joerg, you are seeking a "conclusive answer" and I really don't think there is one. Opinion will continue to be divided. You must simply take your best shot and then modify your decision based on experience. Good luck, fair winds, ron srsk Orion SW FL (keel up, shallow slip)

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.