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C25 Ocean Handling: Fixed vs Swing Keel

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mobile homeless
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Initially Posted - 04/20/2002 : 09:05:53

Living in Wrightsville Beach, NC has its advantages, namely, sailing-wise, a nice sheltered sound and perhaps the quickest and easiest access to the open ocean anywhere.

To give you a bit of background, I have been sailing small boats for years and have owned a Hobie 16 since the early 80s. Ocean sailing in heavy air is welcome. Taught sailing for about 10 years as well. Have skippered everything from a Jeanneau International 50 to a Cheoy Lee Offshore 36 to a Sabre 28 so have some varied big boat experience as well. I just have never owned a thing over 16ft!

Almost bought a little Catalina 25 with a fixed keel that had been damaged in Fran but it became mired in insurance debate and a lawsuit at the local marina. This boat was an 86 and looked to be a good candidate for my first small cruiser.

I wanted to ask a few of the diehards here some impressions on how the Catalina 25 does in the ocean in more moderate conditions. Obviously, this is not a blue water boat but was wondering how they handled in fresh air in open water. I plan on doing most of my day jaunts in the summer where 15-20knts with a few feet of swell is not too uncommon.

So specifically, how does the swing keel do in such conditions? Is the fixed keel really recommended over the swing option? Any and all comments on sailing characteristics welcome. Although I have seen many Catalina 22-25s I have never sailed one.

Thanks for the input.

kelly

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/20/2002 : 20:21:10

I need some poor soul to talk me into buying a swing keel despite living five minutes from ocean access! Am I insane? I've got the fever and rational thought is starting to take a dive... I had a nightmare about being mounted to swing keel and run up the winch while still conscious! I awoke screaming REFUND!

kh

Edited by - mobile homeless on 04/22/2002 13:20:41

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/20/2002 : 22:25:42

Kelly,

By modern standards, the C-25 is a fairly heavy and well-behaved coastal cruiser. It points well, has a gentle motion and stands up well to the wind. It has a relatively long waterline and good speed. The standing rigging is fairly robust for a 25-foot boat. It has a respectable freeboard, to help keep the cockpit dry. C-25’s can be found sailing everywhere along the east, west and Gulf coasts, as well as inland lakes. C-25s are so numerous, because they have been widely regarded to be an exceptional value. You can buy a better boat if you are prepared to spend a lot more money, but it will be hard to find a better boat for the money. They are well built, they sail well and they have good interior accommodations.

Whether you have the swing keel, fin keel, or wing keel, they all have good sailing qualities, but for your purposes, the fin keel or wing keel is the better choice. The consensus of opinions is that the swing keel should not be subjected to heavily pounding seas, although actual failure of the swing keel is rare. The fin and wing keels are sturdier.

If you like to race, the C-25 will compete with or beat any other boat in its size range.

You recognize that the C-25 is not a bluewater boat, and you indicate that you have had fairly extensive sailing experience. If you sail the C-25 within her design limitations, and use good judgment, you should be thoroughly pleased with her performance. My boat has been in 30-35 kt winds and 7-9 foot seas in the Gulf of Mexico, and has handled those conditions safely. I don’t doubt that she could stand up to more, but would not intentionally take her out in big waters in any more challenging conditions.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Bristle
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Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 09:21:00

We were in some 25-30 knot winds with nasty 3-5' chop (not swells) on Long Island Sound bringing our "new" boat home last year... It was too much for us, but not for the boat. Our only real problem was keeping the outboard prop in the water when we had to use it, but that's because the DPO left us with a outboard that was too short.

I agree precisely with Steve about the keel--if you don't need to trailer and/or you're in salt water, I'd go with the fin or wing. In my experience, an unballasted centerboard is pain enough--a 1500# swing keel is simply a questionable idea for other than inland lake sailing. (I'd better shut up now...)

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 04/21/2002 09:22:12

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dave andersen
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Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 11:21:43

In my humble opinion the swing keel is a great lake, bay boat, but not
an ocean going boat like the fixed keel model -- there has to be some
downside to be able to trailer a boat. Consider that the swing keel
is a pendalum with side to side movement, heavier seas and
winds mean more movement. If your main sailing grounds are open
ocean waters go with the fixed keel boats.

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 14:20:45

Well, some very good advice here. I have to say that in the back of my mind, I expected as much about the swing vs fixed. Sadly, I have a line on a great 86 with a lot of good gear and options....really nice condition and all for a GREAT price. Yep, it's a SWING keel. I have been trying to convince myself it would be "OK" while knowing it really is the wrong move. Trouble is, I dont think I could find a fixed or swing for this kind of deal.

I was looking for someone to pull the proverbial wool over my eyes!
Interesting about the racing/performance comments. I didnt know this about the C25.

Thanks for the comments made. Anyone with a swing keel that heads to the ocean, feel free to change mind! Other sailing comments welcome as well.

kh

Edited by - mobile homeless on 04/21/2002 14:24:49

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f_sondergaard
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 07:50:31

HI WILMINGTON SAILOR, WE ARE NEIGHBORS, AS WE ARE IN SOUTHPORT WITH A SWING KEEL CATALINA!! WE GO 10- 15 MILES OFFSHORE WITH OUR SWING AND SHE DOES FINE. OF COURSE I DON'T WANT TO BE OUT THERE IN 8 FOOT PLUS SEAS!! WE HAVE HAD NO KLUNKING OF OUR KEEL. OURS IS A 1982 AND IT IS GREAT FOR THE SHOALS WE HAVE IN OUR AREA AND AROUND BALD HEAD ISLAND. WE HAVE ALSO DONE SOME TRIPS DOWN TO S.C.

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 09:35:12

I knew someone with a swing keel near the open water would speak out sooner or later, even if a a few more are hiding in the woodwork! And to think they are only a short hop down the coast, in South Port, a neat little coastal town near all sorts of exploration potential.

How long have you had your boat? And how often do you make the trek outside? Unlike Wrightsville, you actually have far more sheltered water to poke around with the Cape Fear River and the various channels about.

Does anyone else here have a swing they take in the open water for coastal excursions that have experience with your SK in these kind of conditions? This boat might be just worth getting anyway since I would probably be able to get back at least what I put into it.

I have to admit, however, that I did audibly groan when he informed me of swing keel status... I was already envisioning moonlight sails ofshore at 1am, one of the all-time best things to do in this World.

kh

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Ed Montague
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 13:39:17

KH, You are correct that there are many of us swing keel owners out lurking. Many of us do use our boats in the open waters of the East and West coast. And let's not forget those who are in the Great Lakes area where the weather can be at least as nasty. We have sailed our boat from the California coast to Catalina Island, aproximately 25 miles of open water. We have also sailed in Monterey Bay and the San Juan Islands. The boat is definately capable of offshore (not too far) sailing. That being said, if you are not interested in trailering to new exotic places and will be happy with a single location that has primarily open waters with rougher seas, and if you have a choice, go with the fixed keel. If the deal on the swing keel is too good to pass up, then go for it and use discretion.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

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John Mason
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 14:46:17

You could get the great deal on the swing keel and then buy the wing keel retro-fit. There were some great pictures of a swing to wing keel project on the forum not too long ago.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 15:10:19

Indeed. I believe I stared with glazed eyes at the wing keel retrofit for about an hour... Hell, I even downloaded that page on my machine and studied its habits... Alas, my palms became wet and my vision blurred! Yes, that retrofit looked very intriguing except for the fact that he had about the most perfect setup known to man or beast! Cranes....lifts....humans that could add five numbers without consulting a calculator... I might be able to handle the calculator part...but... I dont think I would attempt anything of that magnitude without being hypnotized first! Might as well buy a fixed keel and save my sanity and my marriage.

Still, the Swing at the price might be worth it. Hearing about Ed's trips to Catalina is definite food for thought. Basically, I know that the right thing is to find a fixed keel for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the ocean aspect but also the CAST IRON nature of the SK, something that obiviously does not bode well for prolonged storage in the NC ocean.

Still....... heh.

kh

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John Mason
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 15:28:17

Keep in mind, the fixed keels before mid-80's are cast iron also. I don't know exactly when the switch was made to lead, but my '82 is cast iron.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 18:22:26

Kelly,

I didn't mean to imply that a swing keel boat is unsuitable for your purposes. I only meant that the fin or wing is more suitable. If you get a swing keel boat, you should probably be a little more hesitant to take her offshore when the weather is marginal, and if you do go offshore in iffy conditions, you should probably stay fairly close to an inlet, so you can shelter quickly if it gets worse. If she starts to pound, you should do what you can to reduce the pounding. For example, she is most likely to pound when being driven hard to windward. You can reduce the pounding by falling off to a reach or run, and by reefing and/or furling your sails, and slowing her speed. When the weather is good, a swing keel will cruise the coast as well as a fin or wing. Truthfully, if the conditions are too severe for a swing keel boat, it is probably time for the fin and wing keel boats to come in, too. I wouldn't let my fin keel boat pound in heavy seas for very long. That is the type of condition that blue water boats are designed to withstand. It really isn't appropriate for our C-25 coastal cruisers. You have to know the limitations of the boat that you have, and sail it within those limitations.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 00:06:51

This is actually turning into a rather informative thread. But I do have a few questions that Steve raised.

Steve talked of knowing the boat's limitations and staying safely within these parameters. Question is, is the Catalina 25 in general a bit sketchy in a bit of a swell and some fresh air? Actually, I was a bit surprised at Steve's reticence here. I know he was just being cautious, and concerned about the boat, but this is a really important point to me. Athough I know the C25 is not designed for blue water action, I do expect it to handle normal coastal conditions with even 3-5ft swells and 15-18knts a bit more. If this is pushing even the fixed keel boat to levels that are not good for the rigging, then that is rather problematic.

I remember writing to a really nice guy living in Australia that had a fixed keel Catalina 25 out in 25 knts with no problems, and this apparently not infrequently. I believe we shared a few mails on the subject back in 96. Now I think that is pushing it a bit but I surely dont want the boat potentially near it's edge here to the point of being endangered.

I guess what I am really asking it what are the margins for these boats. When does the boat start feeling near its edge. I imagine there are different points for each with the swing keel being a bit more worrisome for the obvious points. Still, where do most of you guys draw the line with your boats given the proper personal ability?

kh

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Ken Cave
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 00:28:34

I hope this answers your questions, and I am sorry for the encore on this thread about swing keel Catalinas.

Three years ago, when we were sailing from Nanaimo to Pender across the Georgia Straits in Canada, we were blown darn near into Howe Sound due to the heavy seas and swells.

When we finally got to Princess Louisa (probably the most beautiful place in the world!) I met an gentleman that owns one of the largest repair shops on the Great Lakes. He told me that he had lost his best friends due to the problems of the swing keel on the Catalina, and has repaired many others due to the same problem.

Problem? In heavy seas, the boat will ride up on a wave, and fall into the trough below, leaving the keel in freefall. When it does catch up with boat, it smashes into the back of the trunk, causing it to break open after around three of these waves, sinking the boat.

What to do? If you get into a problem such as this, pull your sails, and pull up your keel and ride it out. It won't pretty, but you you will live to sail another day!!

If you in an area where you encounter problems of this nature, purchase a "blue-water" boat that will take it. There are plenty out there for $30,000 and less and in good condition!

The Catalina 25 SK is a wonderful boat, but it does have its limitations!

Ken Cave

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 04:19:00

Ken, that was a rather horrifying visage! Thanks for the reply. In pouring all through these threads, I remember seeing mention of a device on the swing keel boats that locks the keel in the down position. As noted, there was skepticism about the problems that might arise if encountering a bar or shoal with the keel locked. On the other hand, in a situation with heavy seas that you describe, would this very keel lock ability be desired if not manditory? OF course, I am not really familiar with the aspect and am just floating on memory of this thread but wondering if this is not something the SK offer?

That being said, I do see the point you raise here. Of course, the under 30k point is a rather moot one since I am shopping in the under 6k region. Lordy, not to slight ye olde C25, but if I had 30k to spend, I dont think the Catalina 25 would be tops on the list. One of the good points of the boat as listed in my first inquiry above is the price, which must surely play a role in many decisions. And I would not be honest in saying that it is playing anything less than a 50% roll in mine. I did notice your post concerning the "you get what you pay for" addage. While this can be true, you can also find bargains and situations that make this point a more superfluous one, which is the art of buying anything USED if you know what to look for and do enough research. High or low price is not always the final tale of what you are getting but it surely can be an indication.

Still, the SK comments were well taken. I wonder at which point this starts to play a roll. IT was an eye opening post to be sure, however.

kh

Edited by - mobile homeless on 04/23/2002 11:05:38

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 10:50:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...I did notice your post concerning the "you get what you pay for" addage. While this can be true, you can also find bargains and situations that make this point a more superfluous one, which is the art of buying anything USED if you know what to look for and do enough research. High or low price is not always the final tale of what you are getting...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In my case, I already had a boat, but as usual, was always on the lookout for my next one. Towards the end of last summer I seen a Catalina 25 listed on the internet for $2,850. This boat was listed for a good month and a half to two months and all along I thought for this price something had to be very wrong with it to not be scooped up fast. Now I'm a firm believer in the saying, "you get what you pay for", and I was thinking this boat for $2,850 has to have rags for sails, more blisters than hull, a rickety outboard that produced more smoke than horsepower,...etc. After looking at this ad for 2 months, I decided out of curiousity to call on the boat and find out why it wasn't snatched up. After talking with the owner at length over the phone, I couldn't get him to say what was wrong with the boat. Now the owner did say that the boat was just in need of some cleaning, and we all know what that could mean. Anyway, since it wasn't far from my home(55 miles) I made an appointment to look it over. When I arrived at his house, I found a 1980 fixed keel, standard rig Catalina 25 sitting in it's cradle. The boat looked like it had been parked there for a couple of years without a hint of attention. Anyway I got out my trusty flashlight, pen and notepad and commenced a most thorough examination of every nook and cranny of the boat. When I was done, my list of deficiencies was really just clean, clean, and clean. When I was done inspecting I asked him, "what's the best you'll take for it", and he said, "$2,650". After conferring with the Admiral, I bought it.

For this price,$2,650, I got Harken roller furling, balanced rudder, split backstay, 1996 Mercury 8hp LS with only 3 seasons on it(looks like it just came out of the crate), upgraded sails and sailcover, no blisters, new depth meter, upgraded standing rigging, spreader socket upgrade, stem fitting upgrade, newer cradle,...and the list goes on and on. After taking off a couple of years of dirt and grime inside and out, refinishing the teak, new bottom paint, ...etc, and spending a few nickels and dimes, I have a beautiful boat just waiting to be splashed. My last boat, a Venture 25, was also an unbelievable deal I just happened upon. I recently sold that boat for $300 less than what I paid for it 7 years ago and I got more for it than what I paid for the C25. Do I still believe you get what you pay for? Yes, for the most part, but sometimes you get MORE than you pay for!

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/23/2002 11:04:55

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f_sondergaard
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 12:07:34

kh, hello from Southport! We have had this boat for three years, and had a Catalina 22 before this one. We are more than hooked on Catalina!! We usually try to go out into the ocean about every two weeks, basically every time we sail...if weather permits! There are several Catalina 22's in our area that race out in the blue. We love the room this boat has for a 25. We plan to keep it for a long while!! If our keel goes though, we would buy the retro wing kit and install it! Compared to other 25's in our area the Catalina has the most storage and the pop top is great!! We hate the smell of diesel in the cabin, so our outboard fits us fine! I have't worried about the limits of the Catalina, it hasn't slowed us down a bit. Of course, if the coast guard calls a small craft adv. we wouldn't go out. Period!! Thats when we sail the ICW!

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Bristle
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 12:13:45

Nice going Don!! Sounds like you have an $8000 boat on your hands!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 12:42:44

Kelly,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Athough I know the C25 is not designed for blue water action, I do expect it to handle normal coastal conditions with even 3-5ft swells and 15-18knts a bit more. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The C-25 swing keel will handle those conditions easily. Swells will not hurt the boat. The problem arises when the shape of the waves becomes so steep that the boat falls or leaps off the edge of the waves. That doesn't happen in normal conditions. In the open seas, it takes a pretty high wind to generate that kind of wave, and you shouldn't take any coastal cruiser out in those conditions. Coastal cruisers, whether built by Catalina or by any other manufacturer, aren't designed for those conditions.

But, if you are caught out, it still doesn't have to end in disaster. You have to know how to take care of your boat. The boat is far less likely to pound if you are travelling in the same direction as the waves, instead of beating to windward against the waves. If you slow the boat, head off the wind, or, as Ken suggested, heave to, you will reduce or even eliminate the stresses that could damage the boat. By reducing sail and slowing the boat, you are less likely to generate enough momentum to leap off the edge of a steep wave. By falling off the wind, you cut across the steep face of the wave diagonally, and the boat is less apt to pound. By heaving to, you sit on the surface of the water and let the waves roll under you, rising and falling with the waves, just like a seagull sits on the surface of the water, unharmed, in a storm. In order to heave to, you have to have enough sea room to drift without bumping into anything. With the other techniques, you can continue to sail the boat and control its direction.

Bluewater boats are designed and built to withstand those conditions longer, but no self-respecting owner of a bluewater boat would allow the boat to pound in those conditions when there are ways of reducing or eliminating the stress.

When you buy a bluewater cruiser, you are buying a boat that was designed and built with no compromises with regard to it's structural durability. When you buy any coastal cruiser, you are buying a boat that was designed and built with such compromises. The compromises are made because many of us would not be able to afford the cost of a bluewater boat, and because there are some things that our coastal cruisers actually do better than bluewater boats (e.g. go faster, maneuver better). A boat doesn't have to be so heavily built if we understand the limitations of our boats, and use them appropriately within their limitations.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I guess what I am really asking it what are the margins for these boats. When does the boat start feeling near its edge. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Our boats are better able to take care of us than we are able to take care of our boats. I foolishly took my first small cruiser, a swing keel C-22, into conditions that make me shudder to think about it, but survived, because the boat carried me through it, not because of anything I did.

The way you know when a boat is near its edge is to learn about the design and construction of your boat, and its strengths and weaknesses. Read about heavy weather sailing, so that you will know what conditions to expect, and so you will know what techniques can be used. Then, when the conditions start to get bad, don't just ignore it, because it is so exciting. React to it. Start to think about how you can protect your boat and get her to shelter. When the whole boat starts to shudder as it falls off a wave, and when great quantities of water break back from the bow, she might not be in imminent danger of catastrophic failure, but it is time to start easing her stresses.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 15:16:32

Great post, Steve ... thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts in writing ... 'very informative.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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mobile homeless
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 02:45:30

Anyone with any knowledge of an in-depth review of the Catalina 25 IE ...bad weather helm, side slip, crabbing, bow heavy, and sailing characteristics etc given average rigging (ie obviously some of this will be affected by sail shape, shroud tension, canvas up, weight, etc) please direct me to the thread or page.

I did find the excellent thread on stay adjusting and the resulting handling of the C25. Great stuff. Thanks again for the responses.

kh

Edited by - mobile homeless on 04/24/2002 03:46:02

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Bristle
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Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 09:58:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Anyone with any knowledge of an in-depth review of the Catalina 25 IE ...bad weather helm, side slip, crabbing, bow heavy,... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Most of us wish our C-25s were a little more bow heavy! When my new 108# Honda goes on, I may need some sand bags.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 11:14:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"Most of us wish our C-25s were a little more bow heavy! When my new 108# Honda goes on, I may need some sand bags." -Dave Bristle
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave,

If you need more bow weight, why don't you mount the new motor off the bow like a trolling motor on a bass boat? And if you got one of them foot control steering doohickeys, it would free up your hands.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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Bristle
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 15:23:09

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If you need more bow weight, why don't you mount the new motor off the bow like a trolling motor on a bass boat? And if you got one of them foot control steering doohickeys, it would free up your hands<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I like it!! If Arlyn Stewart can come up with a "soft link" for that, I won't be able to resist! Whoa... wait... What happens when I hit a wave? Hmmmmmmmm(spit)! <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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mobile homeless
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Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 15:25:45

Don, that definitely sounds like a fine plan... While Dave's at it, he should mount one of those BASS boat chairs with the pedestal. He would be able to see over the dog house with style and no more switching sides like old hat hasbeens.

kh

ps- This site really does need full review of the Catalina 25. The Buyers guide is great etc, but a full review of handling, foibles, options, with sea trials etc would be a really good addition. Surprised it has not been done already.

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