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Rudder snapped off!

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/02/2005 : 02:44:27

In a race, doing between 7 and 8 knots under asym spinnaker, the rudder on my '78 C25 (hull #685) snapped off right at the lower pintle. It literally snapped completely in two during a relatively hard round up before the spinnaker sheet could be released. I, at first thought I broke the tiller handle, but when it looked okay I looked overboard. Nothing down there below the gudgeon!!! I never hit a thing. Two days before, though, I was racing in 30 knot winds, 5 foot seas and gusts to 35. I suppose I did not do it any good.

Anyone else have this experience? No rot was evident. CD nor Catalina Yachts had a rudder on hand; luckily another fleet 94 skipper had an old one laying around that I bought, so I am back in action (after installing the new pintles....the old ones on his rudder don't fit my re-fit newer style. I guess these boats are gettin old, but I never expected this.....

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2005 : 09:26:58

"Two days before, though, I was racing in 30 knot winds, 5 foot seas and gusts to 35."
I guess I'm an old chicken Gary - I stay at the dock in stuff like that!
Sorry to hear about the rudder though...
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2005 : 11:25:47

Derek, I thought it was a 65mph gust that got your motor cowl.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2005 : 14:05:25

Frank - I'm not sure whether your humor is getting worse - or better!

(Did you know that a new one costs $261.00?? That's obscene!)
(Actually, I think it was that darn US44 through Oklahoma - you feel and sound like driving on washboard!)

Derek

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2005 : 11:38:03

Hi Gary,

It doesn't happen often, but it happens. There are around 15 C25s in Bayview on Lake Pend Oreille Idaho and in the 21 years I've been there, there has been one rudder failure similar to what you describe.

But, look on the bright-side. Now you can get that new balanced rudder that you've always wanted.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2005 : 23:41:51

I'm betting it cracked the day before and didn't break off due to blind luck. A lot of heel in big seas creates big lateral forces on the rudder blade as the boat pitches. As Bill said, enjoy a new balanced rudder--it's like power steering!

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2005 : 05:18:38

Dave and Bill,

No new rudders in stock at CD or Catalina Yachts so I am rebuilding and old standard rudder I got from a fellow fleet mate.

As for a new, balanced rudder, I have concerns. While Neil Carlson on Lake Cheney told me he LOVES his balanced rudder, I am still a tad skeptical. I race a bit. IF I was racing sports cars, I would not WANT "power steering"; I would want to feel the road. I try to drive with lots of feeling in the helm that helps me assess balance, etc., wouldn't I be missing that with a balanced rudder? If the boat had lots of helm because , say the headsail was sheeted in too far, wouldn't I miss that bit of info. if I couldn't feel it in the rudder?

Please help me understand how the balanced rudder would be BETTER and not just "mask" the forces that must be there in either case. If someone would help me understand this better, I would be more likely to place an order for a new, balanced rudder. I trust Neil's opinion; he's a good sailor, and beat us on our "borrowed" boat in the 2005 Nationals, but I would love a second or third opinion.

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2005 : 10:44:03

It does not isolate the way you imagine. Balanced or not, you are still connected to the boat with two pintles and to your hand with a tiller. I have had both and was skeptical of the balanced rudder. I notice it around the docks and in light air, I do not notice it when seriously sailing. (Racer thought...and it is weight off the transom, remember they float and weigh far less than the original rudder.)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2005 : 11:31:40

Gary B - get the balanced rudder - you will never regret it. I've had both types - the original gave so much weather helm my arms ached after racing in 10 knots! The new one really is like having
power steering - but you still are "well aware of the road", in fact if anything, the feedback becomes more sensitive!
Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2005 : 12:35:27

Thanks......word of mouth is valuable for me. I still don't "get it" in terms of physics, I guess. I do not understand, Derek, how the rudder itself "gives weather helm".....seems to me like that must be other forces at work, i.e. sail size, trim, etc. If you changed nothing on the boat, but added "power steering" so you did not notice it....wouldn't the boat STILL be out of balance but you wouldn't notice it?

Oh, well, I will probably order one if I can find one in stock somewhere.

Thanks again for the advice....

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2005 : 16:37:31

Gary B. - maybe "weather helm" is the wrong term to use - with the old rudder the tiller (in onlt 10 knots of wind) was under my chin and I had to hang on like crazy. The problem with it was that there was no part of the rudder ahead of the pivot point so there was no balancing force. The new rudder has about 2" ahead of the pivot - and it makes all the difference in the world in its balance.
(One thing - when you mount the new one you'll have to turn it almost parallel to the transom to get it onto the gudgeons - and remember that it floats!.)
Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2005 : 18:45:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...it floats!.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Very true! I put a stack of fender washers between the cotter pin and the gudgeon to keep it from bouncing up and down. Also, my pintles are mounted such that the step on the rudder is far enough below the skeg that the rudder can be lifted off without turning it sideways. I'm sure that gap is "bad" for performance, but I don't pretend to be a Derek Crawford.

And I figure if I catch a lobster pot warp on the step (it's a perfect hook for that), the gap will make it easier to clear. (Derek doesn't worry about lobster pots.)

The balanced rudder doesn't actually reduce weather helm--just the amount of force you need to correct for it.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2005 : 23:04:03

"I figure if I catch a lobster pot warp on the step (it's a perfect hook for that)"
It's also a perfect hook for the anchor rode on racing marks...! (Been there, done that - twice!!)

Derek

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