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Centerboard Noise - More Than Shims

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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/22/2006 : 22:11:37

I want to thank the forum for alerting me to a problem I didn't know I had.
My centerboard has always made that clunking noise, even during a tack.
I was reading this post about centerboard shims: [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10253"]Swinger keeps us up all night.[/url]
Last week, my dealer installed new shims but found another problem.

When the centerboard is made a sleeve is "glassed-in" for the pivot shaft.
The sleeve had broken free and the motion of the centerboard had made the hole larger (causing more clunking).
It appears the original sleeve was too smooth and the glass didn't hold.
He fixed it by scoring the sleeve, using epoxy, and a new gel-coat finish.
He said it was extremely important to epoxy the sleeve square and plumb.
I haven't sailed yet, but it sure feels solid.
He also installed 2 foam pieces in the trunk to prevent movement when the centerboard is down
and another piece when the centerboard is up (installed just aft of the line block).
Here's some pictures.

C250WB on boat lift

Centerboard with detached sleeve

Centerboard Trunk Foam

Boat with centerboard installed
Notice the brass mounting plate

Close up of centerboard mounting plate
Notice the blue and white plastic shims
This is all I thought I needed

Russ (#793)

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 03/22/2006 22:15:21

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 22:18:16

Nice post Russ.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 07:59:35

Thanks Russ, (got your msg)
that looks like quite a job on the trailer!
I like the idea of the foam blocks, but would suspect that having them solid would prevent grunge build up.
Do you experience any difficulty in lowering the keel? (does it bind in the foam?)

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 07/22/2006 21:22:39

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 21:28:56

Paul,
I haven't sailed it yet, so I can't tell you about the binding.
The dealer tested the centerboard on the boat lift.
He has a C250WB and will install the foam on his boat.
The picture of the foam block is for his boat.

About the slime, my boat is always on the trailer so I'm in a different situation.
Anyway, the dealer used closed-cell foam so it won't get water logged.
You have a point, it's a rough surface and it will need cleaning.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 21:47:18

I'm so tempted to wrap the keel in some saran wrap and then raise the keel fully and squirt in some of that expanding builders foam. Not the entire keel space, just a few inches of it at the aft end.

That should quieten the little b@$%@er.

Do they make a marine version of that expanding foam?

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 22:13:43

Paul,
Before you do that, you can put it on the trailer and see if your sleeve has come loose too.
My boat is #793 and yours is #841 so they aren't that far apart.
Mine always made noise and it sounds like yours did too.
The factory didn't install shims, so there was about 1/4-inch gap and it's easy to see if the sleeve is sticking out.
Send me an e-mail if you have more questions.
I'll be glad to help.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 06:19:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">you can put it on the trailer <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<center>JD is always on the trailer if not in the water ...

</center>

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 11:53:54

Paul,
Nice Boat, from your signature picture I thought you were always at the slip.
My mistake. If you want to e-mail me pictures of your centerboard on the trailer, I will try to help.
russ.johnson @ comcast.net
Thanks, Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 13:01:10

Paul, I've a story to tell about the expanding foam. Have a fiberglass tub that had a weak bottom so I decided I'd drill a hole for the tube, insert some expanding foam... (I heard this was what the experts did) I guess I got a bit too much as I ended up with about a half inch hump in the tub. That meant making a 3/4 hole and using 90 degree bend in some coat hanger wire in the drill to eat out some of the foam and let the tub return to normal before glassing the hole back up.

I really didn't think I put that much foam in there. :)

Edited by - on

jking
Navigator

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110 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 16:41:22

Paul:
Nice tie-down strap on the bow. How do you secure the stern for towing?

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 17:33:53

jking, we have similar straps on the back.
<center>

</center>

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 07:07:59

Inspection complete!
I'm amazed, the boat is 10 months young but the area around the keel swivel appears to have been painted, it's not nice and smooth like the rest of the hull.
The sleve is clearly seperating from the keel and the retaining plates are scratching the stbd side of the keel. There is an arc scratch that follows the direction of travel that the keel takes upon lowering.
I'm going to contact our dealer who most likely will direct us to speak with catalina on this one.

With the boat on the trailer, I can move the front of the keel(top if down) and simulate the slapping easily! We'll fix this issue and sleep a whole lot better.

more later.

paul

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 13:03:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 ...The sleve is clearly seperating from the keel and the retaining plates are scratching the stbd side of the keel. There is an arc scratch that follows the direction of travel that the keel takes upon lowering...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Paul,
You have the same problem I had.
The sleeve is too smooth and it breaks loose from the centerboard.
If your dealer wants to talk to my dealer, send me an e-mail and I send you the information.
By the way, my dealer fixed mine for free. No charge for the boat-lift, materials, or labor.
The shims and foam pieces were my idea and he only charged labor.
I was prepared to pay much more.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 03/26/2006 13:05:16

WindDancer
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 15:35:41

Russ,

Who is your dealer? I purchased my boat in Tahoe and don't want to hall it from Clearlake. My boat number is 861 and will be pulling it out in a week for some bottom work and will check the sleve.

Thanks,
Bruce
Wind Dancer
Clearlake

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 17:40:58

Bruce,
I'm sending you an e-mail.
Russ #793

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2006 : 22:54:11

Just got word from our dealer, he's going to submit a warranty claim for me.
If you needed an endorsement for a good dealer, I would happily provide one for Jerry Butz, he listens, he races (yep, he races a C250WB 2006!) and goes out of his way to meet the needs of his patrons. We have been really pleased with the support he's given us.
(And he's over 100 miles away!)

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/22/2006 : 21:21:13

Harry, here's the pics of our rig.

paul

Edited by - on

BAJAMAN
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2006 : 17:37:01

I am looking at a 1995 WB and the owner stated he was given a kit (by Catalina) to fix the CB noise. He showed where it went (on CB around the sleeve) and said it was made of "phenolic." Did this change in later years not requiring this phenolic piece? The phenoilic piece was about 3"-4" in diameter and looked like a disc that would have housed the brass sleeve.

Edited by - BAJAMAN on 07/23/2006 17:38:22

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2006 : 18:57:55

Bajaman, I have a 95 WB. Not sure the year mattered. I had the centerboard clunk and dropped the centerboard and installed plastic shims I made from stock at the hardware store. I am not aware of a "phenolic" shim. Others on the forum have reshimmed the centerboard also. I have lucked out and have not had the dreaded klunk in two years, but I did measure the side play before lowering the centerboard and shimmed accordingly.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/23/2006 : 20:52:23

The orginal 'shims' that came on the boat were about 1/8" thick white plastic I would guess some kind of PTFE.

The 'Shims' that catalina sent us to correct the issue were in pairs, a white and a black pair of shims.

I lowered the keel as far as I could with it on the trailer: Dropped the brass retainer plates then levered the back (bottom) of the keel upwards to lower the front (top) of the keel. Then removed the sleeve (it had completely seperated from the keel) re fiberglassed into the keel and cleaned up the area around the keel keepers. Put the whole thing back together using the new shims. It took longer to let the area set than to fix it. Now that the sleeve is again integral to the keel, no slap (so far thank goodness) We're taking JD out on Thursday this week on a 9 day trip to the keys.
So for this trip we have:..
.. No slapping keel.
.. Cool (A/C)
.. Water pump
.. Galley extending table
.. 100Qrt built in cooler
.. Battery powered cabin (DotIT) LED lights.
.. New launching extension tube on the trailer.
.. And before we go I'm installing a 30gal bladder tank beneath the V-Berth.
.. And when we get there, I'm putting on all new telltales so we can practice balancing the rig.
Luxury!

(It's the Admirals Birthday this week, her son and our daughter in law bought her a Seal-n-Save vacuum kit.. So we'll even have some prepared great meals... I won't have to cook so much.. even more luxury!)

Paul

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2006 : 21:57:51

Just add wind!

Have a great Trip Paul.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2006 : 13:21:38

Paul,
I'm glad to hear your problem was fixed.
We both had the same centerboard sleeve problem (hull #793 and #841).
I can report we've been sailing the San Francisco Bay this summer with no clunky centerboard.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2006 : 17:01:28

Awesome Russ, we look forward to some good nights sleep this trip.

(Pre launch now includes 2nd anchor (16lb) and rode, fish pole holder (I'll report if any fish are caught) 10 cans of butane for the stove. I just can almost smell the salt!) Tomorrow the Admiral is off to the store for food and beverages

Paul.

Edited by - on

sterngucker
Navigator

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USA
169 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 17:32:47

Sometimes procrastination pays off. I have been reading the centerboard clunking problems and solutions posts for some time. I called Catalina Yachts Engineering this afternoon and talked to a lady there (should have written down her name) and she is sending me the shims kit. She informed me that the centerboard is designed to have some play at the pivot point to allow the boat to point higher. She also stated some clunking will be normal and that earplugs would drown out any residual noise. She was unaware of any problems concerning the sleeve breaking free and had no comment on that subject.

I will be dropping my centerboard this weekend and intend to check on the state of the sleeve and to install the shims. I suspect that my sleeve will be loose as my hull #799 is in between Russ' and Paul's. I am wondering if installing wedges in the trunk to cradle the centerboard when it is down will effect it's intended wobble. Maybe the answer to solving the clunking at anchor or mooring is to install wedges at the aft end of the trunk to cradle the centerboard when it is raised. Would anchoring with the centerboard raised have any effect on "sailing around the anchor", or is the effect minimal compared to using a riding sail and anchor rode bridle?

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 17:59:10

Charlie,
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">earplugs would drown out any residual noise.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ok, I have stopped laughing now!
The noise would also be reduced when the boat is on the trailer!

We have had virtually zero clunks since we did the mod (reglassed the keel swivel sleeve) but I still like the foam inserts mentioned above and plan to put them in the first time we raise the boat enough to drop the keel.

Re fixing the sleeve, here's how I did it.
a) raise the boat on the bunks enough to allow the keel to drop down enough when the keel keepers are removed.
b) hit the spindle with a hammer, it popped out really easy, didn't require much encouragement as I could wiggle it most of the way out.
c) clean off the sleeve (ours seemed to have bondo like material on it.)
d) clean out the hole where the sleve goes (dremel)
e) clean off all grease/dust/grime etc. from the sleve and sleve hole.
f) paint the sleve with resin and the inside of the hole.
g) quickly insert the sleve, even with all the material I removed it was close enough fit to stay straight.
h) stuff more resin and glass in the gaps between the sleeve and hole.
i) let it cure, then dremel it smooth and paint up.
then rebuild by inserting the spindle and keepers.
While I was at it, I cleaned up the area around the keepers before putting it all back together.
probably only took a few hours, most of trying to figure out how to do it.
It's history now.

Next sail is in November (time off is an issue right now.) have a few mods to do before then.

paul

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2006 : 13:18:35

Charlie,
There's a trick when working with the Catalina Help Desk.

When I first bought my boat, I called Catalina about rudder cracks between the pintels? of my 3rd generation rudder.
I talked to a lady and she told me it was a warrenty item and I needed to contact my dealer first.
I then used the Catalina website's Contact page.
I submitted a brief description and the next day I received and email from Kent.
He requested pictures of my rudder cracks, which he forwarded to Frank Butler.
By the end of the week, Frank sent me an e-mail telling me they would fix it for free and also sent a copy to my dealer.
I think I also received a written letter in the mail from Frank.

My advice is not to call the Catalina Help Desk, but use their website.

Regarding my centerboard problem, I was prepared to pay the dealer to install the shim kit.
It wasn't until the centerboard was removed that the detached sleeve problem was discovered.
The dealer called Catalina and they gave me warrenty credit.
I think they credited the dealer about $100 and I paid the balance about $100.
I thought the whole process was fair.
I also had other work done, like install the foam, which was a separate transaction.

I hope this helps.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

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