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A few questions about sanding a topside for paint

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Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/27/2017 : 14:55:05

Hey all. How's everybody at my favorite forum doing?!

I'm getting my boat topside prepped for paint and what a job!

So far, I've been sanding the hull with a 5" pneumatic dual axis sander, 80 grit and 120 grit paper. Just recently I started using a 1/4 inch chisel to get the paint chips off before sanding them down and my face lit up like I discovered fire because it made it a lot easier (still hard).

I searched the interwebz and it's amazing at the lack of information regarding sanding, it seems like they all skip to the priming phase so here I am, just wanted to ask a few questions and for some advice as in the past you all have been so helpful and I would also like to give others in my situation a chance to have some tips readily available...

The areas that are white in the pictures below are smooth and I found no need to sand them to the gelcoat since the paint feels nice.

A few questions,

1. Is it okay to sand through the gelcoat all the way to the fiberglass? I read somewhere that sanding to the fiberglass was a no no (while they provided no reason why this is), and as you can see by the pics below, I have already done so. I figure since I'm using two part epoxy paint it shouldn't be an issue as long as the surface is smooth and primed properly.

2. Would I be better off using a paint stripper first? FYI the current paint is a two part epoxy. I know this because I put some hardcore thinner on a rag and taped it onto the hull after covering it with plastic..no effect after leaving it on for an hour.

Pretty sure I had some more questions but I can't think of them at the top of my head. They will surely come to mind as we get into this topic.

Check out my progress below. This is about 8 hours of work so far on the port side. There has got to be an easier way! The third pic is my rudder with the Interlux Perfection Rochelle Red that I will also be applying to the topside. What do ya'll think?

8 hours of work, the upper part where it's white is finished too, except for the blue line and above.

Paint flakes that need to be removed completely for a smooth finish.

Painted rudder, Rochelle Red by Interlux. I used 3 coats of Epoxy Primekote 404 and two coats of Interlux Perfection. Applied with a brush then decided to use a roller due to streaks. I will be spraying on a third coat when I spray the topside of my boat.

Any tips/advice would be appreciated,

Thanks for your time!

Drew

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Edited by - Drews Cruise on 10/27/2017 14:58:42

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2017 : 15:26:23

To clarify, the original gelcoat is blue, and the tan areas are bare fiberglass?

The advice not to sand through the gelcoat is probably based on the premise that the gelcoat (on boats built after about 1980) will help resist osmosis and possible delamination. Some opinions are that sanding gelcoat at all reduces its resistance to that. But since you're working above the waterline, it's not really an issue.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2017 : 16:55:27

Blowing up the pic I can see all the chipping,Cracking,Crazing. I'm guessing somebody painted your boat? I ask because I never saw Gelcoat do that. Is it paint your dealing with?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2017 : 17:31:47

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, the gelcoat is blue and the tan areas are glass.

Islander, I believe that it is stock paint. I believe this because it's the only layer of paint that I can see after sanding. The blue is gelcoat and the white is the layer of paint that I think the factory coated it with.

It could have been painted but I can not tell, so it's a guess at best. I'm fairly certain that it's two part paint and the cracked areas are for sure paint and not the gelcoat layer, which is blue.

Have you ever seen chipping/cracking/crazing like that with your stock paint or at all?

Thanks again guys.

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 04:24:12

Catalina didn't use paint only gel coat and I would say that most if not all are white. It could be that Catalina did offer color's and if they did I would say your boat was originally blue gel coat that some PO painted over with the white epoxy? It's the white paint that has failed and is now cracking and Crazing. If this is the case I would just sand down to the smooth blue gel coat just removing the white paint.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/28/2017 04:40:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 06:03:46

Catalina offered a variety of colors. I remember blue, yellow, red, two different shades of light tan, and others. The blue chalked fairly quickly and lost its gloss, so an owner might have painted it to improve its appearance. That blue is not the color of blue that I remember Catalina using, however, so I don't know what it is. My advice is don't sand down to the bare glass. Only sand away what is chipped, cracked and peeled and stop there.

I have never seen either a private owner or a boat yard sand a boat down to bare fiberglass and paint it. They sand until they find a smooth, well-bonded surface and stop.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 06:17:25

Steve, Funny but I thought that blue looked like the Catalina blue. Looks identical to my boot stripe and the stripe under the rub rail.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

bigelowp
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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 06:30:28

It looks like white paint on top of blue gel coat. I agree that only taking the paint off is necessary and required. If you go down to the glass roving then I would check with a fiberglass expert/boat yard as you may need to prime with some special epoxy before applying any top coat

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/29/2017 08:40:17

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 07:02:59

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Steve, Funny but I thought that blue looked like the Catalina blue. Looks identical to my boot stripe and the stripe under the rub rail.

I don't know whether Catalina produced any boat with that color of blue on the hull. They might have, but I never saw one that color. The only color of blue that I have seen on the hull was what I would describe as a robins egg blue, or perhaps it might be described as a shade of sky blue.

On the order form, there was a list of colors that you could specify for the hull, and a list of colors that you could specify for the non-skid areas, and another list of colors that you could specify for the trim stripes. I don't know if any boats were ever ordered with that particular shade of blue on the hull. I can only say I never saw one.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 12:31:46

Thanks for the replies.

The only reason I have been sanding to the fiberglass is because that seems to be the only way to get the flakes off while keeping the surface smooth. I was thinking about painting a thin layer of West Systems Epoxy over the exposed fiberglass, but I don't know if that will be necessary? In the Epoxy Primekote 404 application instructions it says that it can be painted onto bare fiberglass.

I can't believe my situation is so unique. Wish I had more information from the PO but I guess that's what you get with a free boat.

I'm gonna keep on sanding while trying my best to not hit the glass. Will report back later today.

Thanks again everyone. Hopefully we can get some more insight from someone that has experience with this specific issue. I'll be back with questions and more details later today so that we may help others in a similar situation.

Drew

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 13:41:24

You and Steve got me going on hull colors that were offered back in the 70's. Doing a little searching the best I could come up with is the colors offered back in the 70's for a small Capri Cyclone. The upper left looks close. How about that Vega for a throw back.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/28/2017 13:43:55

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 14:41:25

Awesome Vega! They don't make them like they used to. Anyone here watch Wheeler Dealers? ...Check it out sometime if you haven't already, it's a great car show on Velocity.

Anyways, after chipping at the paint and then sanding, chipping and sanding again, I decided to whip out my trusty heat gun and I feel like I've discovered fire. At first I got the paint too hot and I chipped the fiberglass as you can see in the picture below...going to have to do a repair, but I'm not even mad because I know I will save hours of time with the heat gun.

I have the temp set to about 550F and with the proper technique using a chisel I think I am going to save literally hours of sanding. Probably 10-15 hours to be honest. After chipping at the flaked paint with the heat gun and a 1" chisel, I put the DA sander on it for about a half minute and voila. This patch below took me about 5 minutes, literally. Woohoo!

Now the challenge is being very careful to not chip the fiberglass or go through the gel coat or whatever the blue layer is. It's all in the technique. Anyways, I'm pretty happy right now.

Got about 3 more hours of sunlight and I hope to get really close to knocking out the beef of the port side this evening.

These flakes are clearly from the port side sitting in the hot Texas sun, luckily the worst of the flakes are on the port side and the other side looks much better.

I will report back later. Thanks fellas.

Drew

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 16:22:49

Hi Drew,

I've been wondering ... where in Texas are you? What body of water has your boat been on with the PO ... do you know?

'Just curious ... good luck with your restoration!

Buzz Maring

~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68
Lake Dallas, TX

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 : 18:24:37

So it turns out that the heat gun wasn't really helping...It was more about the angle and technique of the chisel. I managed to get A LOT of paint off today. I will have to fill in some holes as the gel coat seems to have bubbles in the highly flaked areas. All good though.

Hey Buzz, I'm in Scroggins, TX (near Mt. Pleasant) and my boat is currently on Lake Cypress Springs where I live. Are you on Lake Lewisville? I used to live in Southlake, TX and still have some friends up there.

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1762 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 07:13:55

quote:
Originally posted by Drews Cruise
Hey Buzz, I'm in Scroggins, TX (near Mt. Pleasant) and my boat is currently on Lake Cypress Springs where I live. Are you on Lake Lewisville? I used to live in Southlake, TX and still have some friends up there.

Hi Drew,

Yes, I live six blocks away from the lake. My boat isn't in the water right now, but I hope to get her back in the water fairly soon.

BTW, when I bought my boat I tried to polish the hull, and nothing seemed to work. I finally figured out a PO had painted over the gelcoat, and the paint was starting to peel off in a couple of places. I used a razor blade scraper to get it all off ... 'took forever!

Once I got that paint mess off I was able to polish the hull and it looked good. My point is, IF you are going to paint your hull, be sure you do it right. It sounds like you plan to do it right, and I must say I really admire your ambition and willingness to bring a good old boat back to life. You're going to love it once you are done!

Good luck!

Buzz Maring

~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68
Lake Dallas, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 08:22:49

Have you tried a stripper? It could be futile depending on the paint, but your solvent test doesn't necessarily tell the story. Just be sure to use a fiberglass-friendly stripper (as sold by WM and others). I'd say the possibility it will work is worth the cost of a small quantity for the experiment--it could change your life!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 08:45:12

I would stop in at a boat repair/yard and might even do there same at an auto body shop, discuss your project and see if they might have any suggestions as to materials to use (chemical stripper or other) and technique. You may even find that if you are not in a rush, they would do the job for you as filler work -- never know,

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 11:26:26

Just to add confusion, there is a blue layer of what appears to be gelcoat or resin under the white gelcoat visible in areas of high wear on my nonskid and other areas where I've drilled through the deck.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/29/2017 : 18:46:26

Thanks for the kind words, Buzz. Maybe we can meet up for a sail one day.

Stinkpotter, I'm going with your advice. Ordered some paint stripper called Aqua-Strip today. I appreciate it and am hopeful that it will work. I plan on doing a test patch and am considering covering it in plastic wrap and leaving it on overnight.

Bigelowp, there is a boat yard nearby and that's a pretty good idea, thanks.

Dave, yes, it would appear that the blue layer is from the factory, I doubt that both our decks were custom painted so I bet that it's just part of the process for our boats and then they cover it with paint. The world may never know.

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/30/2017 : 13:31:37

Cover it with gelcoat, not paint. The usual construction is to mask a prepped mold for the hull stripes and spray the finish gelcoat color. The masking is removed and the stripe color gelcoat is sprayed, a bonding resin follows and the glass layup begins. Hulls are built from the outside in. I was just worried by the vague notion that you might be attacking gelcoat.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2017 : 12:39:41

Dave, I appreciate your response however I have spent over $500 on paint...probably going to end up using it.

There is absolutely no way to sand the current paint off and make the hull smooth without exposing fiberglass in some areas. I will probably go over the areas with some epoxy and filler before applying the two part polyurethane paint as well. What makes you worried that I am "attacking" the gelcoat? After all, it is the topside and will not be submerged in water. Do you have any information as to why sanding down the gelcoat could be a problem? Interlux is extremely durable. As you can see, I was able to carve a little boat out of some leftover Primekote 404, of which I will be applying 3 coats on the hull before applying the paint.

*Update* Paint stripper came in the mail yesterday. Didn't seem to do much after applying it and letting it sit for 24 hours except that it made sanding a little easier. I will apply a coat of the stripper and continue to sand. This paint is TOUGH.

I do have access to an enclosed sandblaster. Maybe I can use the gun and some soda to remove the paint? Not sure if it's the same mechanism or not, the one I have access to uses the black sand.

I appreciate the suggestions, and any more advice and/or moral support would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Drew

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Edited by - Drews Cruise on 11/04/2017 12:50:30

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2017 : 13:48:04

Drew: You'll find here that we traditionally advise people strongly against painting original gelcoat if there's any possibility it can be satisfactorily restored... Of course, you're way past that--you're dealing with an already painted hull. The reason you're dealing with it is the reason we recommend against paint in the first place--once damaged or peeling, paint must be substantially removed before re-done. Gelcoat is softer than paint (especially 2-part paints), which is one of its advantages--damage can often be patched, sanded, or even compounded out. As you've seen, damaged paint is almost impossible to make smooth and sound, and painting over paint is begging for trouble. At this point, I'd say you're doing the right thing--the same thing many very expensive yachts get periodically (although usually with Awlgrip or Imron, which generally are for professional equipment and experience, although I've heard Imron is a little easier for the amateur). The pros sand every scrap of the old paint down to gelcoat or whatever resin was the original surface under the paint--a major project that I've seen...

As I gather you're planning, I would indeed coat any exposed laminates with resin, building it up to the point where you can sand it down smooth with the adjoining gelcoat, creating some "teeth" in the process. The evidence shows that the blue is very probably the original gelcoat.

Carry on... and best of luck! We'll be seeing your boat coming from a long way out!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2017 : 15:22:20

Stinkpotter, thanks for the words of encouragement. I can't imaging doing this work on a larger yacht, it is SO labor intensive. It's almost like every step I take with my boat becomes the hardest job. I know it will be worth it when she's finished though, and I can't wait to share with you guys the fruit of my labor!

I'm never painting a boat again :P Just kidding.

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Drews Cruise
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2017 : 17:04:33

Applied the paint stripper to problem areas, virtually no effect. Took a pressure washer to the hull with the strongest point nozzle and went at it for several hours. Seems to have been the most effective method. I'd say I'm about 50% done now (hopefully).. I basically sprayed and anywhere the paint was chipped away and I worked on those areas the best I could. Plan on sanding everything down and even leaving some of the paint on the areas that weren't affected by the nozzle where there is no flaking (will sand these areas smooth, of course). Then I'm going to fill the dents/cracks and cover the fiberglass and other areas with epoxy/fairing compound and sand her down smooth. I'm actually really confident that this will turn out awesome.

Plan on doing 3 coats of primer after that...and then as many coats of paint that I can put on it before running out of paint, probably 3. Will be spraying the paint. I've already done the rudder as you have seen before and it turned out really nice. The end is in sight, people!

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Will post pics of the current stage tomorrow with some daylight.

Drew

Drew C. | 1979 Catalina 25 SK TR #1420
http://bit.ly/Click_Here_For_My_Catalina_25_Videos

Edited by - Drews Cruise on 11/06/2017 17:25:53

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2017 : 19:21:40

Um, did you say you'll be spraying two part polyurethane paint? There are a few words of caution from Don Casey. On page 380 of his book "Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual" he advises: Spraying two part poly results in the production of cyanide gas which is lethal. He further says that "you can get as good a finish - often better - by rolling and tipping this amazing paint".
Also, if you overspray you risk completely destroying anybody's boat or car that happens to be nearby. And with that color red, I don't think your neighbor would have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what happened.
Just sayin'

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 11/06/2017 19:23:07

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/07/2017 : 11:02:29

There is no problem with removing the gelcoat, just the amount of labor added. Usually its grind and sand bad areas, fill the divots, sand and paint, but your project and result have to make you happy.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

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