Association Forum - Running lights while sailing or under power

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Running lights while sailing or under power

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Member Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2011 : 21:46:42

Since I've been working on my nav lights for the last couple of days, I started thinking about how I'm supposed to use them, and realized I really didn't know all the rules. I found the USCG site & have been reading through the rules for the last hour or so. I think I have a better understanding now, but I also know there are several licensed folks on here who may be able to provide a succinct synopsis for our boats.

Here's what I've learned tonight (paraphrased for what I think are the rules that apply to our 25' boats, read the links for more complete information):

If you're under sail [url="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule25"]rule 25a[/url] says:
You have to show:
side lights (red port, green starboard)
stern light (white 135 degrees)
-or-
25b: a single lantern run up the top of the mast
-or-
25c: two all around lights in a vertical line, red on top of green

If you're under power, [url="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule23"]rule 23a[/url] says:
You have to show:
A mast head light (225 degrees, this is the one half way up the mast), a second mast head light can be displayed above the first, but is not required. Would this have to be another 225 degree light, or could it be the anchor light (360 degree white)? I'd think it'd need to be another 225 degree light.
Side lights (red port, green starboard)
Stern light (135 degree white)

I haven't seen anything that specifically addresses motor sailing, but I'd assume you're "under power" and those rules apply, is that correct?

I'm pretty sure this is a good summary, but could you more learned folks chime in?

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 03:15:24

I am not an expert on the rules but I think it is common knowledge that when "under power", you should have your running lights on (bow port & starboard and the stern "white" light) and the mast "white" light that is located half-way up the mast. I would not get into the optional 2nd "white" mast light at the top of the mast since it is not necessary.

"Under sail" while there are alternates that are acceptable, it is common to be outfitted with the standard running light arrangement which is the bow (port and starboard) light(s) and the stern "white" light. The location of these lights also makes it fairly easy for replacing bulbs.

In a situation where one or more of the standard arrangement lights konks out, well then knowing what alternates are acceptable may be worthwhile if then considering a temporary arrangmwent where a light is run up a halyard, etc.

The more I think of it, I guess you already know the above and are just looking into the finer details of the USCG rules which like you said, there are others on this Forum that are more or less experts on these rules. So, we shall see what they have to say. I guess I never really got that much into this other than to ensure that the configurations I have onboard meet the rules and that any replacements would also meet the rules as far as brightness (nautical miles light can be seen), etc. This was of concern to me several years ago when I replaced the anchor light with a new LED housing/light that was approved by the USCG. LEDs and their brightness still has some tweaking to do but 4+ years ago, it was murkier as far as just replacing a bulb with an LED and expect to have same brightness. The other thing i was considering but ruled it out 4 years ago was to replace my bow port and starboard lights with a USCG approved LED light and housing. I was considering the Lopolight but it is extremely expensive and so ruled it out back then. Nowadays, there seems to be more choices for the consumer with potentially just replacing the bulb with a suitable LED and though not USCG approved unless it comes with it's own housing approved by USCG, there does seem to be replacmeent bulbs that will provide equal brightness/nautical mile visibility compared to the OEM style bulb.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/01/2011 03:29:59

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 04:46:53

I'm not an expert, but I pretend to be.

My original panel engravings were misleadling, so I relabeled to show "running" (red/green/stern to be used always after sunset) and "steaming" (white forward light to be used only when motor is on).

By the way, don't bother to replace the steaming light w/ LED, because the motor's alternator has more than enough power for it unless you have a LOT of electrical gear.

I don't have my references with me, but IIRC 25b is only for very small sailing dinghies. Our boats always need the 25a running lights. Also IIRC 25c is an option in addition to the 25a lights. 25c alone will not suffice because other vessels cannot tell from them whether they are the stand-on vessel or not, which is a key function of nav lights. In other words, if another boater sees red, he yields (with or without white - or wit or witout as they say in Philly

), if he sees green+white steaming, he is stand-on, if he sees green only, he knows you are a boat under sail and he yields if he is a motorboat with sufficient maneuverability.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 04:56:52

Under sail:
Bow running lights, red (port) & green (starboard), and stern light (white, 135 degree)
Under power:
Same as above, plus the steaming light (white, 225 degrees, facing front). In lieu of the two white lights that equal 360 degrees, you may substitute one all around white light such as the masthead anchor light, as long as the bow lights are also on.

It is not appropriate to run the all around white light while under sail.

Non-motorized boats under 16 ft. are not required to have running lights. A flashlight will suffice. Ex. canoe, small dinghy, etc.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/01/2011 04:59:54

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 05:11:04

You are correct, motor sailing is the same as under power. Any time you are in gear and making way with the motor you need steaming light and running lights (red/green/stern). It should probably be noted as well that when you are "motor sailing" as you put it, you have the same rights as a power boat or in other words, you must give way to sailing vessels.

Edited by - on

Harleyworker
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 05:15:11

Or in the Midwest, like Kansas and Missouri, you turn on every stinking light on your boat so you can be seen.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 06:11:48

The red over green combination in the USCG rules is something I've never seen on the water. It makes no sense for boats like ours, since those lights would be incorrect whenever we are running under power.

I strongly recommend that every aspiring mariner have a copy of Chapman Piloting and/or The Annapolis Book of Seamanship. You should know not just what lights you're supposed to show, but what another set of lights means when you see it on the water, and what you are supposed to do when you see it--especially if you're in an area with any commercial traffic. The USCG (ColReg) rules are complete, but not presented as clearly as these books do it. And there's so much more... I try to go through Chapman every winter. I also carry an 8.5 x 11" plastic card from WM showing lights, nav-aids, sound signals, etc., on board for quick reference. (I passed the USCG Captain's License test, but my memory is frail.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/01/2011 08:35:01

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 06:13:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 It should probably be noted as well that when you are "motor sailing" as you put it, you have the same rights as a power boat or in other words, you must give way to sailing vessels.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless the sailing vessel is over taking the motor sailer/power vessl, the other vessel is operating under restricted manueverability, or fishing commercially.

Edited by - on

kentwm
Navigator

Members Avatar

101 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 06:26:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I strongly recommend that every aspiring mariner have a copy of Chapman Piloting and/or The Annapolis Book of Seamanship. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I received the Annapolis Book of Seamanship for Christmas last year... it's a great book. The sections in it are clear and short. The other sailing books I have are way to verbose and it is too easy to loose interest.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1519 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 07:08:09

I often cross a shipping lane at night, and I have found it useful to recognize tugboats and their lights:

"A power driven vessel when towing shall exhibit:
(i) instead of the light prescribed in Rule 23(a)(i) or (a)(ii), two masthead lights in a vertical line. When the length of the tow measuring from the stern of the towing vessel to the after end of the tow exceeds 200 meters, three such lights in a vertical line;
(ii) sidelights;
(iii) a sternlight;
(iv) a towing light in a vertical line above the sternlight."

One night there was a procession of tugs and coal barges stretching up and down the Bay for at least 20 miles! They were heading for the Port of Baltimore and my friend and I weren't going to mess with them and try to cross to the east!

The 3 white lights on each tug told the story.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 08:36:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 The 3 white lights on each tug told the story.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My point exactly. ...and the kind of thing I might have to look up on my card.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 21:10:50

Close but I need to correct a few possibly important details. Feel free to double check me b/c I'm far from perfect, but I just passed my USCG 100 ton masters so this stuff is fresh in my mind.

Sail only - sidelights (red/green) and stern light (135 white) plus Red over Green UNLESS you're under 20 meters in which case you can run a tri-color or just red/green/stern. [NOTE- I occasionally work on a 130' 220gt Ketch. She has red over green on the main mast but we never really light them. It's sort of like the inverted cone that you're supposed to hoist when you're under power with your sails up, few people here use show it.]

Motor only and/or Sails with Motor- side, stern (135 white), plus mast light (225 white facing forward). Again, under 20m can use a single tricolor with mast light. We can use a single 360 white in lieu of separate mast/stern lights because our vessels are under 12m in length. The requirement for separate mast/stern lights is for vessels under 20m in length (which we also fit into). It's kind of confusing...

Sail boats or other non-motorized vessels (row boats, etc) UNDER 7 METERS (about 22') can use a flashlight instead of fixed lights.

Since we're on the topic of lights it's probably worth noting that on vessels under 12m in length the mast and stern light must be able to be seen from a range of at least 2 miles while the sidelights must be seen from at least 1 mile.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Under sail:
Bow running lights, red (port) & green (starboard), and stern light (white, 135 degree)
Under power:
Same as above, plus the steaming light (white, 225 degrees, facing front). In lieu of the two white lights that equal 360 degrees, you may substitute one all around white light such as the masthead anchor light, as long as the bow lights are also on.

It is not appropriate to run the all around white light while under sail.

Non-motorized boats under 16 ft. are not required to have running lights. A flashlight will suffice. Ex. canoe, small dinghy, etc.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Ryan L on 06/01/2011 23:53:44

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 08:37:58

Thanks for the clarifications, especially correcting me on the 16 ft. item.

This might be useful, from the Boat US online course:
http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/project/info2c.htm

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/02/2011 08:57:49

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 08:57:27

I took the test longer ago than Ryan, so I'm not prepared to question his details... I suspect they're very complete.

The point is what another boat will see, and the white light is a big part of that. The 135 deg. stern light will be seen only when the 112.5 deg. side lights are not visible. The 225 degree steaming light combines with the stern light to give white all around (also can be accomplished with a 360 white). So, when you see the following ahead, it means as follows (and you must act according to the appropriate rules):

* Red only--sailboat crossing right to left.
* Red and white (visible at the same time)--boat under power crossing right to left.
* Green only--sailboat crossing left to right.
* Green and white--boat under power...
* White only--sail or power--you're approaching from astern--keep clear. (Could also be an anchored boat or rowboat--use caution.)
* Red and green--sailboat coming straight at you.
* White over red and green--powerboat coming at you.

Additional lights generally mean larger boats or other situations, such as towing (or that you're in Kansas)... But the combinations above are what we and boats like us are supposed to show each other. The various light arcs (angles) are designed to accomplish these presentations. Again, red over green is an anachronism--I've never seen it on the water.

BTW, this stuff is way simpler than what's on the USCG test!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/02/2011 09:20:34

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 09:14:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 * White over red and green--powerboat coming at you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or a 747!

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 09:33:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(or that you're in Kansas)... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You just couldn't stop yourself, could you....

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 11:01:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(or that you're in Kansas)... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You just couldn't stop yourself, could you....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just reporting what I've been told.

Edited by - on

JeanAndre
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2011 : 09:47:33

Hi All,

just some more useful info.

If you are running your engine but it it disengaged (charging batteries for example) you do not need the steaming light (white light forward).

As soon as your engine is used for propulsion, the steaming light should come on and you are now a power vessel, and should follow the rules accordingly, even if you have your sails up!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2011 : 10:56:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JeanAndre
 ...If you are running your engine but it it disengaged (charging batteries for example) you do not need the steaming light (white light forward)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed--a fine point--maybe too fine, IMHO. Let's extrapolate to daytime when no lights are in use: If your engine is running and sails are up, and somebody hears the engine, or sees exhaust and cooling water, they might be expected to consider you to be under power. (We haven't even talked about day-shapes, probably because nobody uses them.) So I'd suggest the same thing at night. If I have sails up and start my engine, I'll presume that a nearby sailboat considers me to be "propelled by machinery" and behave accordingly. After all, even out of gear (how would he know?), the running engine gives me some maneuvering options the other sailboat doesn't immediately have.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2011 : 11:19:15

www.boatsafe.com

There's a page there to print out different colored light arrangements. I have one on our boat in the boat book.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2011 : 13:26:39

I have this plastic card on board (maybe 10 bucks at WM):

Lights and signals on one side, navigation stuff on the other--pretty good. I made another card for my boat--starting, stopping, dropping anchor, calling for help, etc... (...in case I forget.

) Just remembered--I need to update it for my new GPS.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.