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Self steering bungee cord

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tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/13/2012 : 07:05:00

I saw a utube video a month or so ago showing a bungee configuration betweem the boom and tiller that allowed them to work together. I've searched the forum and utube but can't find it now.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Tom

1978 C25 "Karma" #790
Toledo Beach Marina
LaSalle, Michigan

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 07:31:27

I've seen diagrams and video where the clew of the jib is attached to bungee and block lead to the tiller.

The basic principle is as the sail luffs the bungee tightens pulling the tiller windward and bearing off to fill the sail again.

I'll look around for the link later - back to work for now :-)

Edited by - on

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 08:49:27

That's the one.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 09:08:04

You can find what you want on Arlyn's C250 page.

http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/softlink.html

I can say that I wanted this when I first got my boat. Now that I've done quite a bit more docking I'm pretty used to the arrangement with separate tillers for the motor and rudder and don't really see the need.

alex

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Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 09:15:27

Here is one of the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-CYP6GMkwM& feature=related

If you search "sheet to tiller" on youtube you get a few hits demonstrating various flavours of teh same theme.

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 11:36:17

I like this one better - much simpler design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQNBlrg0VyI& feature=related

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 13:06:12

Sorry, I was posting the configuration that allows you to link motor and rudder.

I'll make up for it by posting this, which goes into details on how to implement what is in those videos:
http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

It looks interesting to try.

Edited by - on

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 13:14:46

Todd,

The one based on the John Lector idea is the one I saw. Great idea. Thanks for finding it.

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 22:28:12

I have used this for years.
Always hated the look of the "Tiller Tamer".
I would not call it a "self steering" system but it will hold the track while you need to do something else for a short time.
I use a 1/4" bungee with loops on the ends that go over the cleats and a loop in the middle that fits on the tiller. Pulling the loop on the tiller forward increases the tension and the boat will will track pretty well if the sails are set well.
I can use it to set the drifter, reef, dropping the main, rolling the furler or just to get a fresh frosty beverage but no chore should take very long far from the tiller.

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 05:35:19

While my Tiller Clutch enables me to go forward, or below, for a short period.... I really use it to give my arms a break. I get a little tired after a few hours of sailing so it's nice to set the TC, then sit back and enjoy the ride....reaching over to make a quick correction as needed. In practice, that's how I use it 95% of the time. In an hour of sailing, I'll have my hands on the tiller for maybe 10 minutes total.

Note that this is only under good conditions....days like I posted in another thread, I hardly use the TC at all.

Edited by - on

JeanAndre
Navigator

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USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 09:19:21

I Hope this helps;
- From the book Singlehanded tips by Andrew Evans. -

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 10:18:11

Here is variation used on Sparky:
1. Unbolted eyebolt is slipped thru the hole for tiller extension on tiller.
2. Mid portion of an appropriate length line is looped thru the eyebolt so it doesn't slip.
3. Two bights put in each end of the line with taut line hitches.
4. Two short bungie cords looped thru the bights and connected to cleats port & starboard.
Now the tiller may be set at any position desired by adjusting the taut line hitches and the bungees give it just enough flex for it to make minor self adjustments. The contraption is immediately released in a hurry by just lifting the eyebolt out of the pin hole.
This works really well close reaching to close hauled.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 21:08:51

There are two different classes of solutions being discussed here.

One are different ways of implementing a tiller tamer (a brake of some sort that holds the tiller in a fixed position). That works pretty well if wind and water conditions are consistent, but requires more regular attention. I have a tiller tamer and will use it to run forward for a minute or two, but not much longer. If I'm single handing and hoisting sail there is a lot of running back and forth.

The other is tying a sheet and the tiller together to make the tiller and sail position try to maintain a relative trim. That seems like it could last much longer, how long are people comfortable using those solutions for? Do they work well in most situations, or are they best suited for a particular point of sail? In most drawings it looks like they'll let you setup for a beam reach or close hauled and then the boat will follow the wind to that point of sail.

The third option is an autopilot, which can't control the sails but will use an internal compass and your rudder to main a specific direction.

Has anyone compared the last two options in practice? I'm wondering if I should fiddle around with the self trimming sails/rudder solutions, or just look into an autopilot. The Simrad TP10 and Raymarine ST1000+ are relatively cheap as far as boat items go, and seem like they'd work well for the C-25. Adding a couple of blocks and playing with the sheets is cheaper, but still isn't free. On the other hand I can see advantages to keeping the boat at a near-constant sail trim instead of following a particular bearing.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 08:21:53

I think it depends on your need....

For me, the Tiller Clutch is all I need on my small lake. I'm not on a tack for longer than an hour. So, it works perfectly for what I need.

If I was out on the open ocean or Great Lake...where I could be on a single tack for hours (even days)....an autopilot would be the way to go.

The storm jib tied to the tiller and bungee cord...interesting concept and handy to know/have....as a backup to an autopilot. If I had a need for long term steering control like that, I'd just use an AP. Just me personally....YMMV....

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/15/2012 08:22:21

JeanAndre
Navigator

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USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 20:58:24

There is a thing as a fellow single hander that I would like to point out that is the difference between the autopilot and the Sheet steering or the Windvane.
THe autopilot locks the boats rudder to steer according the compass no matter what the wind does as the wind vane or the sheet steering steer the boat in relation to wind position.
This means that if I am to stay on a course for a while but I will be on deck on watch, the autopilot is good and If I am to motor somewhere the autopilot is perfect. But if I am going to be sailing for a while fixing a meal down bellow or if I am to take a nap for some 15 minutes i would use either the sheet steering or a windvane that i because I would rather be woken up by the wrong direction GPS alarm than be woken by a wrong tack or worse an unespected jybe.
I am not defending one or the other, both a great to have for specific purposes.
What is nice about the sheet steering is the amount of exercise we do on sail trimming and sail balance. I recomend everybody take their boats for a whole day and try the sheet steering, you will get better at sail trimming by the second and this will make us better and better sailors.

I found this video by Andrew Evans on Sheet steering, he makes it look very easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY1qx3PfUS0&feature=related

Fair winds and a great weekend to all!

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 07:28:15

Don't think I would advise napping while singlehanding -EVER! Basic law of the sea is the captain is always in charge of the vessel while underway, meaning keeping watch. You never know who or what could come up in your path. Other day a tug with four barges came up on me fast. Shocking how quickly they approached.
I might nap while hove to - no not then either, because you're still underway however slowly. If self steering systems allow us to take our eye off the ball for more than a minute or two, then IMHO these promote carelessness.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 08:13:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 ...The Simrad TP10 and Raymarine ST1000+ are relatively cheap as far as boat items go, and seem like they'd work well for the C-25...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't have an autopilot but I've read numerous threads over the past 5 years of people that have purchased both of the units you mentioned above. Almost all have had issues with them not holding up over time. Most of those that have had problems eventually moved up one size and had no further issues.

Keep in mind that most of the people I read about were sailing in coastal conditions. I would think on a lake or in more protected conditions the two mentioned above should do fine.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 08:54:18

I'm sailing in coastal conditions. Lake Union is <5 miles and about 90 minutes from Puget Sound (the additional time is to get through one drawbridge and the locks).

The Simrad TP22 has the same mechanical design (using a threaded screw instead of a ballscrew) as the Simrad TP10, the additional money just gets you GPS integration (this is according to the manual specifications). The Simrad TP32 (about twice the cost) is what it takes to get beefed up mechanicals. I've found a lot of online threads with people having issues with the Raymarine ST1000+, but not too many people seem to have problems with the Simrad units. I don't know if this is due to Raymarine being much more common, or Simrad being much more robust.

I'm looking into this because I have some longer solo days on trips this summer, and a tillerpilot would be nice for being able to run forward and manage the sails or use the head for a few minutes. I'd never nap while my boat was underway and I was going solo. In heavier conditions I think I'd be more comfortable managing it myself.

It looks like the ST2000+ might be the sweet spot for functionality vs price (just under $500 and it has the ballscrew), but the issues that I've read about Raymarine tillerpilots make me concerned. The similar Simrad TP32 is almost $200 more.

The sheet to rudder methods are interesting, but the most effective one seems to be using the third sail (a storm sail) as a weathervane. That is even more additional cost and complexity. I do like the benefit of having the boat follow the wind instead of following a compass heading, but for my needs I think either could work.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 14:54:07

A friend of mine uses his autopilot to steer the boat at 60 degrees to the apparent wind. He has a classic Sabre ~38 that's equipped with a wind vane, gps, chart plotter, gyrocompass and autopilot all integrated using the NMEA 0183 protocol. From Stratford Light in LI Sound he generally makes the run to Huntington and back when the winds are SW in the summertime.
Being able to sail by the wind rather than by heading keeps things predictable, except during wind shifts.
Wonder whether the value-priced units will connect up to the NMEA cabling?

Edited by - on

Davy J
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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 15:42:18

I can understand the reason to use the sheet to tiller configuration, but will you be sailing for days on end?

I purchased a Simrad TP22. It doesn't get used all that often, but when it does, it works wonders.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 18:47:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 I can understand the reason to use the sheet to tiller configuration, but will you be sailing for days on end?

I purchased a Simrad TP22. It doesn't get used all that often, but when it does, it works wonders.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When it's raining cats and dogs, nothing beats sitting behind the dodger and letting the AP drive. I had the TP20, the 22's daddy. It was oversized for the application but worked perfectly. Plug and play quick connection, NMEA compatible, imagine running your boat from a plotter down below! The TP 20/22 is also only $500 bucks and can drive a vessel up to 36'. Take it with you when you buy your next boat.

The Simrad unit is very popular with European cruisers, many of which carry this exact unit as a backup to an existing AP. Wheeled and tiller driven boats. The AP can be connected to the quadrant, the wheel in the cockpit, or affixed to the windvane system. AP's can drive when there is no wind, wind driven and bungee systems can't.

For solo sailors, an AP is simply delightful. Pulling the hook? Just engage at idle, set the AP, and go forward and take your time. Raising the main or a sail change? Piece of cake. Or get a little nooky while underway without worry. Remember the 15 minute rule!

Napping - On an offshore passage with known values, an egg-timer set on 10 or 15 minutes is OK. I often cook while on watch. On my C&C 39, I simply watch the plotter and radar from down below and have a permimeter alarm set. (I have both a below decks hydraulic AP and an Aries Windvane self steering system.) If anything enters my space, the alarm will go off. I also have an old radar detector that acts as a backup.

SO, head up every fifteen, full cockpit walk every 30 minutes. I've taken a hot shower underway, BUT, these practices are only applicable and safe because of the safety measures in place. Remaining active during my watch keeps me focused and I don't like to feel confined to the cockpit. SO, get the autopilot. You'll never regret it.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 06/17/2012 18:56:12

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 19:02:11

More on this topic from another forum:

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=142703& styleid=1

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 20:33:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ....... Or get a little nooky while underway without worry. Remember the 15 minute rule!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sweet....time for her too....

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 09:39:10

Nearly all of my sailing is singlehanded and for the past eleven years, I haven't left the dock without my autopilot hooked up and ready to go. For the six years prior to buying the autopilot, I used the various other techniques (bungees, tiller tamers, tiller sheeting, etc), and yeah, you can make them work or get by on them, but for me, an autopilot is in a whole different class. If I go out sailing for 6-8 hours, I'm usually on autopilot for most of the time as it allows me to adjust the sails, among other things, while Otto is manning the helm.

As to sleeping while underway. Although I don't go down below and hit the rack while under sail, I will occasionally take very brief catnaps or drift in and out of consciousness for minutes at a time while in the cockpit. This isn't really as scary as one might think as I'm usually sailing many miles from the shipping channels, land, or other boats. At a Great Lakes Singlehanded Society seminar I attended, they gave instruction on using the proper techniques for sleeping while underway (assorted loud timers, length of naps, when and where, etc) but basically you scan the horizon for any other boats or islands, then set a timer for about 10-12 minutes. During the interval, I might drift in or out for only a minute or two at a time, waking occasionally to open one eye to look around, then I close my eyes again and repeat. It is amazing how restful these micro-naps can be. Kind of like shutting your eyes at the office for a few minutes during lunch where you are somewhere between awake and snoring dead asleep.

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