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Mast wiring, deck light

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yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/03/2019 : 14:35:23

Hi,

I have my SR mast down. I'll take some more pictures and post them in here soon.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2g8rrcZPaYRhuMBD8

For context, with mast stepped:
Anchor light always worked/works
Deck light never works (bulb tested good)
Steaming light always works

With mast on the ground and harness pins available:
Using a 2.5a 12v source on the mast/deck connector, I can reliably burn the steaming light, the anchor light but never the deck light.

Moving up to the deck/steaming housing, cover off there are three points of contact. Positive source to positive steaming light and negative source to common ground (as indicated), steaming light burns.
In fact, negative source to anywhere pretty much on this thing that is not plastic burns the steaming light. I pull the housing away from the mast, there are two wires. I can see the remaining two going up the mast to the anchor light and no green, from what I can tell, exits here to support grounding the steaming/deck light unit.

Let's pretend I'm not crazy, can two wires, without a ground, support this config (two independent circuits for two autonomous lights)? It appears to be original but the wiring harness (deck plug) does have silicon so that has at least been touched by some previous skipper.

I'm not opposed to purchasing new 4-wire, harness, plug, and even deck/steaming light housing if needbe but I'm not convinced that is the issue. I think the boat deck wiring is good. This appears to be within the mast.

I'll stop there for now, take some pictures to narrow things down and add some steps of logic (hopefully).

Thanks,

Carl

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2019 : 16:36:24

Carl,

Which of your mast lights have incandescent bulbs, and which are LEDs?

Are all your mast light control switches SPST, or something more elaborate?

Are any of the mast light functions combined on a single switch (steaming and anchor, for instance)?

� Leon Sisson

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2019 : 17:20:39

Check the continuity of each wire in the harness with the fixtures removed to isolate the harness wires only. If you have continuity in each wire then it's not the harness. Then move on to the fixtures then the plug and check them. I'm assuming you already checked for power to the deck fitting.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/03/2019 17:23:23

keats
Navigator

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215 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2019 : 19:33:06

quote:

Let's pretend I'm not crazy, can two wires, without a ground, support this config

The answer to that, at least, is no. Unless the mast were being used as a ground, which, I don't believe is advisable in marine applications.

Three lights on the mast requires four wires.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2019 : 22:48:50

I assume you�re eventually going to rewire the mast, so go ahead and bite the bullet and don�t mess around. Check your fixtures. If the connections and sockets are not corroded and the housings are not cracked and watertight, keep them. If not, then replace them.

Don�t use a common negative because you have to do splices inside the mast that will eventually fail. Do two conductor #12 stranded, tinned wire up the pole, one cable for each fixture. Join the common negative wires with a crimp connector at the base of the mast. Feed the three positive cables plus the negative inside a shrink tubing jacket out to the deck plug. Use a grommet to protect the cable coming through the hole at the base of the mast.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2019 : 19:04:30

is your red or green grounded to the mast?

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2019 : 04:10:57

Better not be.... Unless you want a very attractive 30ft lightning rod.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/05/2019 04:33:17

Good Times
1st Mate

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45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2019 : 06:24:14

Just a thought:
Looks like you have two grounds coming out of the plug at the mast foot and two hot wires. The deck light is not used very often and a P.O. Could have decided to forego its use, run two separate hot& ground wires, one pair to the mast top and the other to the steaming light; thereby he did not have to splice the common ground near the fixture. ( which btw is not an issue if one leads the ground to the screw in the fixture and continue from that screw up the mast to the anchor light).
I would check the wires on the plug in the deck to identify which is which when each switch is flipped at the panel. The hot wire for the deck light could have been switched to a ground at the panel...

And do switch to LEDs by all means when the wiring is sorted out.
Good Luck.

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Hobie Cat
23.5 Hunter

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2019 : 17:25:36

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all you responses. I hope I can capture answers here but in the end, I'm still going with either a new four-wire and LEDs or a new three wire and a single green and LEDs or maybe a four wire including green ground up to the masthead and then a fifth shorter green to the deck light fixture's shared ground.

The green is ground or at least I was able to burn the anchor light independently with green to negative and then red to the positive lead off my source. Leaving the negative on green, I moved positive to the opposite which was white and that burned the steaming halogen. Then I tried the black which I suspected was the deck light (process of elimination and I saw black and white coming out midmast into the deck/steam fixture) and it arced/snapped/shorted.

I moved up the mast with my source and tried (as previously described) several combos and only when I deliberately put a terminal on either end of the housing did I get the deck light to burn. I removed the fixture expecting to find a cracked contact for the shared ground or something similar and I didn't see much. I am somewhat suspicious that the green (which was intact btw, not spliced into, it keeps going up the mast as I can see through the exit ramp for the deck/steam hot leads) I wonder if the mast is the ground.

So, I would hope that with a new four wire and new fixtures, $250 later, I can put this to bed including a new canon plug and through deck even though I do not suspect it is the issue since I have difficulties with the mast on the bench taking the boat wiring out of the equation.

Carl

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2019 : 05:06:20

I used the wiring harness from Catalina Direct a few years back $70. i used cable ties with the tails left on to prevent the wire from slapping inside the mast. I put too many on and it was difficult to pull the wire but it went well.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2019 : 06:08:40

Hi Ray,

Would you give some specifics on how you managed to get the intact jacket with four cables up to the steaming/deck light hole in the mast, pull two wires out (or three, ground splice) and then continue with the remaining red and ground to the anchor light? I'm quite certain that if the entire jacketed set of four wires were run from base to masthead, I would not be able to pull a loop through to get into it and pull two wires (or three).

Were there instructions?

Thanks much,

Carl

keats
Navigator

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USA
215 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2019 : 07:38:44

Carl,

When I did this last year I used four conductor cable. I laid it out next to the mast and marked the location of the streaming light on the cable.

I removed about 8 inches of the cable jacket there, exposing the wires. I cinched two wire ties on the ends of the stripped jacket here to reduce slipping.

I fished in a pull wire and used this to pull in the new cable from the top down. I pulled very gently and had someone feeding the cable at so I didn't stress it.

I went slow worked the halyards periodically to make sure I wasn't interfering.

When it was pulled in, I completed the wiring at the top, anchor light, and put a strain relief bushing in.

Down at the steaming light, I believe I enlarged the hole slightly with a Unibit. I used a hooked pick to reach through and grab the loose wires and pull them out. Again, I worked the halyards.

I tied the base of this loop with a ziptie and also drilled another small hole next to the larger one and used this to ziptie the loop to the inside of the mast here to take the strain off.

I cut and stripped three of the wires and completed wiring on the steaming/deck light combo. The screw terminal for the common ground in that fixture had enough room for two wires, the ground wire coming up the mast, then continuing to the top. So I don't technically have a splice.

When I was finished I realized I hadn't put zipties along the length of the cable and kicked myself. But I haven't had any slapping so I guess I'm lucky.

I had access to some high-end tray cable, which is very supple and has a good "lay". It's so flexible I think this helps with the slapping.

As per above, definitely go LED. I did on all but the deck light, which I rarely use and only for short periods. I like the bright halogen bulb that came in the fixture.

Do note Bruce's comments on dedicated ground wires, that is good practice. In my cable, the ground wire was one gage higher than the rest to carry extra current, though I would never have a reason to run all three lights.

Test everything before you put the mast up. Check polarity on LEDs.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

Edited by - keats on 05/06/2019 07:40:30

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2019 : 09:07:10

My halyards are not inside my mast so I may have some more room in mine. I pulled the wiring harness down from the top. I did have to enlarge the hole at the steaming light to get the wire fished out.

I pulled the old wire out first with a cord connected it to use to then pull the harness.

It was tight at the spreaders.

make sure your cord is connected really well to the wire. You might have to pull pretty hard.

Get some electricians lube for the harness and apply it liberally.

Also I think you can call Catalina Direct and they will give you some info.

I thought the harness worked great, but as usual it took me about three times as long as I thought it would and with electrical I hafta work slow to make sure I do it correctly.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 12:21:58

My boat went in the water yesterday. Thinking of this topic I crossed my fingers and started throwing switches. Thank the sea God's they all lit up.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 12:55:48

Many years ago, I replaced my mast and cabin wiring to a new switch panel. I used �Anchor� brand �Mast Cable� which had 5 wires in a round cable/jacket. I used 4 as positive leads to hook up a new anchor LED light, Steaming light, deck light and a new fan near the top of the cabin bulkhead/mast column. The 5th wire, I used as the negative wire. Details on my website.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 14:09:54

Going by the manuals and brouchers wiring diagram the ground/green is 10 gauge. The others are 14.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 14:16:24

I ordered the C.D. 4-wire which raises the question that the ground would differ in gauge, probably not in a set but good point/observation, particularly shared. My mast has a conduit that, after reading, I'm pleased to see. I also emptied my cart of C.D. LEDs and went on Amazon. We'll see what they look like today as I carefully unwrap anticipating I get what I paid for but I'm remaining optimistic.

Fans are a good idea.

Carl

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 14:37:33

Carl, If you call CD they can answer any questions you have about the harness. They are incredibly helpful and will bend over backwards to help. One of the best companies I ever dealt with.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 19:58:58

The 10 Gauge negative common wire would accommodate all incandescent lights being turned on at the same time. A 25W anchor light, a 25W steaming light and two 15W deck lights would take about (2+2+3) or 7 Amps. For a 3% voltage drop in a 30 foot long wire, Don Casey advises #10 AWG wire.
With LED 2 nm navigation lights, the power draw is closer to 3-5W for each. In that case you�re more likely to run about 1 to 1.5 Amps. According to Casey, this requires no more than #16AWG. That�s why I recommended 3X 14AWG cables.
If I were installing LEDs using 4-wire cable, I�d go with 14-4 cable. But using the CD cable with a heavy common negative return couldn�t hurt.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2019 : 04:31:41

That's all true that if you replace all the bulbs with LED bulbs then you could use 16-18 wire but maybe you should put a warning lable or something telling any future owners that the mast wiring will only support LED bulbs only.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2019 : 15:45:41

Thanks all for your input. I received the CD wiring kit and was surprised to see how the approach differed from the last one that I think was installed just five years ago. The previous (now removed) wiring had four wires (GRBW) with black and red going all the way to the masthead to support the anchor light. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I could go neg->every other color and get a lamp to burn except for black and green for the deck light...then I pulled the canon plug. The green and the black were together on one terminal effectively creating a short. There were also spots of missing insulation. New wiring with green, white, black to the deck/steam combo and then another jacket with Red and Green in it going up to the anchor (LEDs) and it works with the smallest drop in voltage. I called CD asking to return the chromed metal plug and they gladly accepted insisting that the black plastic is the way to go. The chromed plug for $25 has clearance issues.

Then, by the forces of nature and luck, my opening port on portside had a leaking gasket. I removed all of last season's workaround (winter window treatment and hockey tape) to gain access for a gasket replacement and it's fine. I hit it with gallons of water and a good storm, dry. We'll see how she holds but maybe I WILL get her splashed this weekend after all.

Thanks again. Great exercise with a voltmeter.

Carl

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2019 : 15:47:32

In case anyone sees this later. I plan to put it in chronological order and add some captions but since the season is upon us...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/k5qptGYhabqitvoU7

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2019 : 06:09:36

quote:
The green and the black were together on one terminal effectively creating a short.

Sometimes is just easier to gut it and start fresh. Trying to figure out what a PO did can drive you mad.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

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