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250 Rudder Delaminating

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wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/23/2005 : 21:00:05

Hello;

I have a new Catalina 250 water ballast that has only been sailed about 10 times this year - on Lake Erie. When I hauled the boat out this fall and began to clean it up I noticed that the rudder has begun to split between the transom mounting brackets. Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Does Catalina cover this under warranty?

This damage seems to have occurred from a twisting torque on the rudder when it was under strain - i.e. holding the boat on course under sail in heavier winds and waves. I noticed that the boat takes a lot of tiller handling in rougher water and stiff winds.

I am very concerned about rudder failure at the "wrong time" and, of course, there is never a "right time" for anything to break - especially when out on the water in strong winds or waves.

Any help or suggestions that any of you could offer would be really appreciated.

I also have some digital photos of the rudder damage if anyone wants to see them - I could not figure out how to post them with this message.

Wally MacKinnon
London, ON
Navasana - Hull #724

Wally MacKinnon
London, ON
Navasana - Hull #724
Sometimes can be found at: N 42 30 W 081 36

Edited by - wallymackinnon on 10/23/2005 21:03:29

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2005 : 09:44:41

I have a 95 wb with exactly the same thing. A crack down the leading edge of the rudder, just between the mounts, maybe a foot long. It cracked and it's been that way for 10 years. I'm guessing it's a gelcoat crack and nothing structural.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2005 : 12:39:26

There have been a number of discussions about this problem this link will take you to one http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=4740&SearchTerms=rudder,cracks You can do a search for rudder cracks (if you want to read more) and make sure you check archives. A number of owners have sent their rudders back to Catalina for repair (me included). <b>Talk to Kent or Gerry Douglas at Catalina to get yours fixed.</b> Incidently my rudder was fixed after the one year mark and no cracks since.

Edited by - on

stewendkos
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2005 : 16:25:03

I have a 2003 as does my friend,and we just had that exact problem.I called Frank Butler,the owner of Cat Yachts in Woodland Hills ,ca.,and he took care of the problem.I took them to the dealer,he picked them up, repaired them(no charge) and returned them in 10 days.The major thing here was'nt structual, but they can become water -logged,but who knows?Somebody else said to use marine -tex from Westmarine.
Steve Wendkos

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2005 : 21:11:43

I have a 2005 WK and also have problems with my rudder. I have the wheel option and the other day noticed cracks in the gelcoat parallel to the water near the gudgeons (near the point where the steering sector connects to the rudder). My dealer had me open the cracks with a small dremel tool to the fiberglas in an attempt to determine if the cracks went into the rudder. After the 'routing' action and a wipe of a wet finger across the opened crack I soon discovered that the crack indeed does go into the rudder proper. My dealer contacted Frank of Catalina and I have a new rudder on the way! :) I am very impressed with the support from Catalina.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 17:23:19

Catalina fixed my rudder as well last year (their cost) no problems since.

Edited by - on

jfesi
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 21:36:24

I have WK #713. Our rudder had the same crack after one season. It went back to Catalina and they fixed the problem. My dealer charged me $90.00 for the freight though!

We purchased the boat in November of '03 and commissioned it in April of '04. I pulled the rudder off in December of '04 so the dealer said that my one year warranty was out and that I would have to pay for the freight.
I would not recomend the Sailing Center in St. Louis. Nothing but problems with the work that they did prior to commisioning and no customer service to make it right.

Joe Fesi

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 23:27:32

Joe, I would check my title and see what date the boat was yours. If it is April then you have the dealer by the you know whats. In either case I would write Mr Butler a nice letter explaining how "Happy" you are with His local dealer and asking why you had to pay the frieght on a known factory defect with the C250 rudders. I had the same problem, but it occurred 2 months after I got the boat. We did put a lot of stress on the rudder during some high wind tests to see at what angle of heel the boat would break loss. Catalina just sent my dealer a new rudder and the dealer set it up and brought it to me for exchange. We have not had any problems with the replacement and yes, the new rudder has been under a lot of stress quite a few times with no problems.

Edited by - frog0911 on 10/31/2005 19:16:32

jfesi
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2005 : 18:58:46

Thanks for the info. I'll write Mr. Butler.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 13:18:31

I have had similar problems with the 3rd generation rudder that I purchased from Catalina for my 1999 250 WK. The new rudder cracked between the gudgeons on the leading edge. Catalina promptly repaired the damage and returned the rudder in time for my launch in the spring of 2004.

I just completed hauling out for the winter, cleaned up the boat, and stored the equipment. I always store the rudder in my heated basement for the winter. I noticed today that the rudder has a new crack on the leading edge, in the same spot as the earlier one. The gelcoat also cracked and chipped off around the lower gudgeon. I intend to take some photos, contact Catalina again to see what can be done to resolve this problem on a permanent basis. I'll keep you all informed.

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 16:20:59

I have a '99 250 WK and contacted them on Monday about the same problem. They asked me to send pictures which I did. I am waiting to hear back. I'll let you know what I hear.

Edited by - on

wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 21:49:09

Thank you all for reviewing this problem, for providing your feedback and sharing your experience. Based on what everybody is saying, it appears that rudder splitting is a design and/or material problem that is showing up a lot.

I am awaiting a response back from my Catalina dealer and will let you all know what happens.

Best regards;

Wally

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 17:45:15

I received an email from Frank today suggesting that I returned the rudder. He said that while the boat is out of warranty he would see what he could do. I also found out that they seem to have changed the way they now mold the rudder. The question I asked them is will they guaranteed the rudder repair or perhaps replace it. Either way I am looking at several hundred $'s to return it which I intend to do.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 20:00:56

My 2003 rudder showed cracks between the pintles on one side. It cost me $50 to UPS my rudder to CA from WV 2 years ago for repair. I wrapped it in bubbl wrap and used heavy 2 ply cardboard with wood blocks at the top and bottom. Catalina sent it back sandwiched between two pieces of 1/4 inch plywood.

Edited by - frankr on 11/04/2005 20:05:02

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 15:52:20

I sent my rudder back today. It was $178 including the packaging at the local UPS store.

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 17:08:15

I received an email from Frank Butler. He said that they had investigated the rudder cracking and found that it was caused by over grinding the "overlap".

My rudder arrived at Catalina today according to the UPS tracking.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2005 : 14:46:33

Is "overgrindng the overlap" another way of saying the fiberglass layer over the foam core was not thick enough to provide the required strength?

I'm waiting for a response to my inquiry. Will let you know what happens in my case.

Edited by - on

RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 14:20:05

If you can't get a fix under Warranty you may want to consider a solid HDPE composite rudder from Ida Sailor. They won't crack, split or deform. I have a kick up one on my C250 WK and its great. Of course if you race I'm not sure whether that is an accepted Mod or not.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2005 : 14:05:26

I'm not familiar with HDPE material used in the Ida Sailor rudder? What is the HDPE material made from? Is it as strong as fiberglass? Does it degrade in sunlight? Is the rudder still coated with gelcoat? Any difficulties with the gelcoat adhering to the HDPE? How long have you used your new rudder on the 250 WK? And just curious, why did you decided to buy the kick-up version, versus the high performance model?

I'm waiting for a response from Catalina on my cracked 3rd generation rudder. I didn't realize there was an option on the market.

Thanks for any additional details.

Edited by - on

RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 08:07:51

Alan, you can go to their web site for a full description. IDASAILOR.COM This is a solid composite rudder and is virtually indestructible. The kick-up is a high performance rudder also. I like the safety feature as well as being able to take it apart for storage and maintenance.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 09:07:49

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2005 : 20:44:24

My repaired rudder arrived today from Catalina. There was no charge for either the shipping or the repair. It is a beautiful job. The true test is when the boat gets in the water. That will be in early May after I finish my leaves and get the snow shovel way.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2005 : 17:17:58

I received a letter today from Frank Butler, who stated they would repair my rudder at no charge. All I have to do is ship it to the factory.

Let's report back on the repairs next season.

Edited by - on

wallymackinnon
Deckhand

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Canada
18 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2005 : 10:53:05

Hello all;

Its been a few days since I have logged on to the Forum and was amazed to see so much discussion regarding this problem. This really demonstrates the value of being a part of a "community" like this.

My Catalina dealer has contacted me and said that they would repair the rudder for no charge - however, they want me to get the rudder to them at my cost. I will do that for now but intend to pursue compensation for the cost of delivery/shipping as this is clearly a manufacturer's issue, not one of misuse or abuse.

Unfortunately, the only tacking I will be doing for the next several months is in my driveway with a snowblower so I will also have to wait to find out if the repairs to the rudder put this problem to rest once and for all.

Best regards;

Wally

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2005 : 12:54:37

I'm in the process of buying a '01 C-250, minus the rudder. The owner "can't remember" where he put it. Yeah, sure; probably was stolen. Anyway, Catalina is building a new one for the boat at his expense (how much?). Can I expect the delaminating problem solved for all new rudders? If not, fortunately I can hand carry it back to Mr. Butler in Woodland Hills since we live in Long Beach.

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2005 : 17:58:09

Frank Farmer,

Frank Butler told me in my last conversation with him, that they have identified and solved the problem. So, hopefully you won't experience these problems. I would carefully check the leading edge of the rudder each season for cracking - just to make sure. I'm sure we will all resume this thread next season, after we sweep the snow off our boats and get back in the water. :-)

Edited by - on

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