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Rigging Asymetrical Spinnaker on Catalina 25

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bobby bunch
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/20/2005 : 09:02:45

Wish to purchase asymetrical spinnaker for Catalina 25. Need rigging information..especially
mast/ halyard connection at masthead. A picture would be good.

Beauregard (The Beau)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 09:45:39

NewilPryde has a pretty good white paper, it is hard to find because of the frames they use. go to cruising overview from this link and scroll down to the last white paper. They make a point that is seldom made, if you use a spinnaker halyard which flies above/in front of the forestay then you must gybe the saiil aroound the front of the forestay. If you use a spare jib halyard which exits below/inside the forestay then you can gybe the sail inside the forestay. The difference includes sheet/guy length and technique. The details any individual are looking for are dependant on the rst of the rigging of that person's boat. Do you have a furler? Do you have a snuffer? How many halyards do you have? How are they run? There is a thread on the general forum about spinnaker crains that you should look at.
http://www.neilprydesails.com/spinnakersframe.htm

Edited by - on

bobby bunch
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 09:52:07

Thanks for the information regarding Spinnaker rigging.
The Beau

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 10:11:56

Hi Frank, I am thinking about rigging for a spinnaker. I don't have the $$$ to buy one now, but I will be pulling the mast down to replace the spreader sockets, replace all the original wirering, install the masthead crane.....so, how do you run your spinnaker, outside the forestay or outside? Also, have you talked to your friend about making up more of the masthead cranes? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 11:40:00

Bobby,

I went through the same questions last year when I ordered a spinnaker. As a matter of fact - Frank posted some pictures of his masthead which helped a lot. Our masthead actually has a pin on the most forward part specifically for a spinnaker halyard. If you run a block and a halyard you now have something to hoist the spinnaker. When not in use you can tie down on a cleat on the mast. Mine is tied down to a mast pad eye for a whisker pole. This in no way interferes with tacking. Now to keep everything extra simple - the tack of the sail is tied down inside of the forestay. Simply run the line from the tack through the port cleat from the outside in - wrap around one of the "legs" of the pulpit - wrap around the line just before it went through the cleat and tie down on the starboard cleat. You want to keep this somewhat close so that the tack of the sail is centered between the cleats and the cleats are being pulled inward not up. You can adjust the luff tension by using the halyard. Simple! Now you can tack inside the forestay, and if there is one thing the asymetrical is great for is tacking. If you have a furler - what I typically do is wrap a line around the furled sail all the way down to the pulpit and secure. I tried and tested this quite a bit this summer. By the way - an asymetrical is a great sail! It salvaged all those days of close to no wind this summer. Three knots under spinnaker is much better than not moving at all. Well worth it.

So - not a whole lot of money involved other than off course, the sail itself. I do highly recommend getting a spinnaker sock. A spinnaker is a lot of sail and you almost can't manage without it. Westmarine has a generic one for around 100 bucks. Works really nicely.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 12:14:13

Hi Esteban, Can you fly the jib when the Spin is in the sock? Also, I just when to WM and they sell their sock by the foot ($11.98 per foot) When did you see the sock for $100.00? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 12:51:54

I'm sorry - it's called a chute not a sock. Here is their page, just cut and paste:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/71970

And no - I wouldn't use my head sail with the chute hoisted. Just too much crap to get tangled... I have however used the headsail and the spinnaker on a downrun. Very cool except you can't see a thing ahead of you. If you try this - don't single hand.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 13:37:30

Looks like a good product, I want one. It is hard hoisting and dousing my spinnaker out of the turtle bag or salon single handed.

SInce they say for a poled spinnaker use 3 to 4 feet shorter than the luff of the sail.

My sail just clears the bow pulpit.

Would we use a 20 to 25 foot chute on our standard rigs?

Or the 25 to 32?

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 13:40:31

Thanks Esteban. Looking at the picture makes me wonder. It apears that you need about 4 or 5 feet of clear line about the spin for the chute to gather. Is that right? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 14:28:18

Hummm - not sure I get the question - but I am a bit slow with the punch lines.

If you mean 4 or 5 feet above the head of the sail the answer is no. The picture in the West Marine website shows the chute partially up or down. I'm guessing when the chute is all the way up and buched up we are talking maybe ten inches at best? Mind you - the chute does have it's own hoisting "halyard" that you tie down on the mast cleat.

Jim - not sure on the right size for you since I have a Tall Rig. I will tell you that this makes singlehand sailing a breeze. If you need to dump the sail quickly just let the sheet run through the block and into the water - you can then take your time walking forward and lowering the chute which makes it incredibly manageable. Also for Bobby - I forgot to mention; I don't recommend using a shackle for the tack. Just tie your sheet midway to the tack. A shackle will really bounce around and ding someone if your sail is flapping about. I took mine off the first use.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 14:36:53

It must be winter since I'm sailing vacariously through this website...

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 14:53:53

Hi Esteban, That is what us northern sailors do!!! OK, so the picture shows the sock not all the way up? That is why there appears to be four of five feet of sock above the spin. If you ran the sock lines to the cockpit, you'd never have to go forward. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 16:24:48

Yup - you got it. Pictures tries to illustrate the chute in mid motion.

As for running chute lines aft - I would probably end up tripping or getting tangled on them. To be honest - there is not much need for that. Hoist the sail - pull up the chute and let the sail luff in the wind while you move back to the cockpit. Trim sail, turn up the tunes, kick back and away you go. This sail does have a lot of flexibility from a little forward of a beam reach to a down run. 2-4 knots is better than motoring anyday, besides it is really a pretty thing to look at and the buds can see you from a far.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 16:29:24

Hi Esteban, I am fairly broken up and don't move that fast and am not agile. If I had to make a run to the back of the boat, it could be disasterous (SP), that is why I would run lines back. Between the military, logging accedents and car accedents, I don't move so good. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 18:44:51

Remember Dennis this is on light air days, this is not a racing chute.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 19:26:14

Might I suggest a deck hand?

Frank is correct - we are talking very light wind days. Also - when the waters are choppy spinnakers do don't well. The constant pitching motion ot the boat stalls the sail. As the wind fills it again quickly on the up picth the sails tends to take a serious beating back and forth. Racing is a whole different story where you throw up as much sail area as possible on a down run, even on strong winds. I don't race and use the spinnaker only when my 135 is not getting me anywhere.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 19:39:34

Dennis,

The lines, actually line, for raising and lowering the spinnaker sock is attached at the top of the sock and down the inside via a small block, forming a loop at deck level - there are no loose ends on deck. Unless you want to spend a bunch of money on new 1/4" sock halyard (probably about 80 to 90 feet or more on a tall rig)and spending the time and effort to attach and run it to the cockpit......., well, frankly the stock system works great. You need to be on the fordeck to bag or stow the retreaved sock/spinnnaker anyway. I've completed this operation single handed a number of times. With practice it's no problem.

Edited by - aeckhart on 12/20/2005 19:42:42

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 21:10:12

I used a simple vinyl coated wire to get the tack high enough off the deck. I used a simple web strap to keep the tack at my furler.

I hoisted with my jib halyard

I have plenty of room here to lower the sail tack and make room for a sock.

I took this sail out about 30 minutes later to try it out, (I was considering buying it, it is for a std rig Catalina 25, from Neil Pryde/Rolly Tasker). The amount of air you see in this picture was no problem art the dock and almost killed me out on the water. I could only get the sail half way up when The boat started going sideways and I started hauling ripstop. It was several hours before I had blood back in my face. I really wish someone had caught it on film.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2005 : 22:05:42

Thanks all for your advice. You are right about it being a light air sail...so no problem there.

Frank, how did you almost kill yourself with that spinnaker? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 09:04:27

You are looking at 8-10 knots; I was alone trying to hoist it for the first time. It was 14 years since the last time I flew a chute and that was with crew. I figured I would raise it into the wind and fall off. It blew the sail aft which put the halyard at an acute angle at the mast head and added so much friction that I could not get it more than halfway up. Of course this is with me standing on my left leg, trying to steer with my right foot while hoisting at the cabin top. The sail caused the boat to fall off to a close reach and the sail started oscillating and pulling the boat sideways as I tried to get it back into the wind. This was all very physical and then I realized I had lost the challenged and had to get it down. That required the usual grabbing of cloth in great armfuls while not loosing ground and managing the tension on the halyard and sheet to be sure the sail did not go in the water, (which makes the sail gain terrific "mass" and resistance). Once I got the sail in I was physically exhausted. I weigh 300 lbs and while I am more physically fit than most would expect, the forces involved with a spinnaker hoist gone bad for a single handing sailor can be pretty serious. I have done several treadmill tests in recent years and this was equivalent to a triple treadmill or more. Some friends saw me in the parking lot after I got back in, based on my coloring they wondered if I had a heart attack, (I may have). I gave the sail back to the friend offering to sell me the sail and told him I was not interested at this time. Pretty though isn't it.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 09:21:20

Hey Frank,

Looks like you have the sail on backwards? tack and clew?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 10:22:05

Yep

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 10:47:33

WOW Frank. That is exactly the situation I am concerned with. I think the sock is a great idea just from a management POV. If you had a sock, you could have doused the spin right away. I'm glad you made it back in one piece. Any word on your friend making the cranes? I plan on measureing my mast today and will know for sure if I have a SR or TR. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 10:48:22

Sorry - I wasn't going to say anything but that first picture just gave it away...

Rookie needs to stay quiet.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 13:01:26

On this forum it is good to point out things like that.
However, I have an 89, our genoa tracks stop at the winches, in order to sheet that sail I needed to reverse it. Note that it was set quite nicley, the pocket looks good. You may wonder why I have it in so hard, I want a flat Asym, I think they call them code zeros, so that I can carry it on a close reach. I figure if you are going to single hand one you want to be able to carry it up wind.
I went out to see how it would fly like that and learned a lesson in humility. Several people told me it was blowing too high to try it alone but I went anyway.

Dennis,
I have not talked to Gary, it is winter. I probably should call him but you are the only one to show any real interest and I doubt he will make more unless we can move 6 or more. I will ask him though. It will probably be after the first of the year.

Edited by - on

Brian King
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2005 : 13:19:09

Frank you can put me down as an interested party for a mast head crane. I have a '89 SR/WK #5931 without a spinnaker, but I'd like to get rigged for one - maybe this summer. So, if the price on the crane is not prohibitive, I'm in for one. Being that I'm in Central NY it's going to be a few months before we have soft water! Thanks Frank.

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