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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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sailboat - power boat collision

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/04/2006 : 16:46:09

From a post on the Trailer Sailor [url="http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060503/NEWS/60503024/1033/NEWS01"]California Collision[/url]

There have been a couple accounts of such collisions in the past few months, which raise the issue of the clear need to be seen by power boaters. Making no conclusions about what actually happened in this instance, the need to be seen is evident.

Giving thought to the relationship of a sailboat near shore and a power boat approaching shore fast, it doesn't require much imagination to understand that the power boater may easily interpret anchor lights or even a steaming light as some various shore lighting rather than a boat at anchor on the water. There is little depth perception afforded by lights in the dark. Also a power boater approaching shore may have lost his night vision due to shore lighting. Like many animals rely upon, visual movement might offer the best possibility for the power boater to see the danger.

I'm beginning to believe that lighting regs to show a mast head anchor light are inadequate and will now show in conjunction with the anchor light, an all around lantern a few feet above deck on a long enough lanyard so that it hopefully dances around a bit.

While I don't think it is now legal, a white anchor light blinking would get attention to be an anchor light rather than some shore lighting. Is there a good reason why a white blinking light is illegal?

What do you think?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/04/2006 16:53:07

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 17:39:10

I fellow on our lake, who grew up delivering yachts in the Mediterranean, leaves his spreader deck lights on at all times, he looks like a Christmas tree but sleeps and sails that way.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 18:20:18

You will never get a ticket for having your boat lit up like the vegas strip. I shouldn't say never, but it would be really rare.

Blinking lights are for Navigation Arlyn....I'm surprised you didn't think of that with your Great Lakes Cruising experience.

dw

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 19:42:36

Ever since the speedboat sailboat collision on a like near by last year, I've been hanging a LED lantern from the Boom for extra precaution.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 20:13:02

Duane... actually according to Chapmans, 61st edition, page 138 in the "Defining Navigation Lights" box, a Flashing Light must flash regularly at least 120 times per minute which is quite rapid so as to lessen any possible confusion with a quick flashing buoy or other aid to navigation.

I was likely errant in using the term blinking rather than flashing as blinking doesn't connote a very fast rate. I fully agree that no white light should blink or flash at any rate within the rates used by nav aids.

I will confess, fast flashing lights are obnoxious and I might regret them.

Actually, I may have found the answer to my question. While I thought I remembered the prohibition on flashing lights, I couldn't recall where i saw it. Those words are also found in Chapmans page 143 under Anchor Lights, and are actually a prohibition against using a strobe light "To use a strobe light as an anchor light or as an anti collision light is improper and may result in civil penalties. A strobe light is a distress signal under Inland Rules only and doesn't meet the definition for an all-around light."

Is a flashing light at a rate of at least 120 per minute classified as a strobe light? Dang, my head is swimming.

I'd never made a lawyer who hangs on the play of words.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 20:35:04

Tom, aha.... here is what Chapman says about that, again in the Anchor Light section after defining an anchor light... "The Coast Guard advises boaters to refrain from displaying additional lights that might be confusing to other boaters who are navigating at night."

What other lights? Is a lantern on a halyard a few feet above the deck along with the masthead anchor light improper? But, I agree with you Tom, I think a masthead anchor light can too easily be confused by a quickly approaching power boater to be a shore light of some sort.

Most power boaters on small lakes do not anchor out and sleep on their boats and human nature isn't always alert to patterns it doesn't share. Power boaters may also be keyed to look for fast moving white all around lights which are brigher than red/green nav lights to identify other traffic.

I believe this is at least the case in one Canadian accident a while back where the power boater testified that he suddenly saw a white light before he hit the sailboat... the sailboat had turned sharply to try to avoid the collision and in doing displayed his white stern light to the power boater who never acknowledged seeing red/green nav lights.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 21:37:11

One could always run 12V LED rope lights on the lifelines so as to be seen at anchor.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 21:39:50

and look like a cruise ship

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 21:42:04

Edited by - on

raulpou
Navigator

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144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 22:26:14

Arlyn,

I used to powerboat at night quite a bit on the west coast of Florida and when coming towards shore or anywhere inland we had a person with a spotlight scanning every 20 seconds or so. We also did not power up until clearly out of anywhere we are to encounter an anchored or drifting fish boat. I guess a little common sense goes a long way but as we all know, many powerboaters use up more oxygen than they contribute to this earth. (Not all but a good sum) :)

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 22:35:34

Don, those rope lights make for a terrific idea: You might run a string along the lifelines or maybe up the mast that spelled out "Sailboat Parked Here", or "Sailboat At Anchor", or "Hey Powerboat Don't Run Over Me".

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 23:51:37

We anchor in a fairly busy area. In addition to the legally required anchor light, we hang a lantern on the mast, just above the boom. The idea is to light up the mast,boom and deck so that it is as clear as possible that we are a boat and that we are not moving. We use a waterproof 360 degree visibility lantern, with rechargable batteries. The batteries gave us about 8 hours of good light.
Another sailboat had an oil lantern hung from his bowsprit in a manner that showed his hull. I thought it was quite affective.
IMHO, the law is gravitating toward intent. The courts are overwhelmed with silly and vexatious litigation....judgements have gradually shown signs of common sense. I think it only prudent to find a way to light up a boat in a way that augments the anchor light. I have a recent copy of Chapmans and a 35 year old version, they contain similar info regarding lights, but I can't help but think that those regs haven't kept up with the realities of light pollution and faster boats.
I think the idea of using the rope lights is not far-fetched.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 00:08:00

Man, I wish I had a pic of a boat in the Christmas light parade here last year... A 40-footer rigged a makeshift bowsprit lit up to look like the neck and head of a swan, and then added lighted wings about 15-20' long that they raised and lowered with two halyards to make them "flap". I don't know how that would jibe with the regs, but it'd sure get a drunken stinkpotter's attention!

BTW, a powerboater back where I used to live was going a little faster than he should've been in the dark a couple of years ago, and hit a concrete breakwater, killing himself and a passenger. I saw the boat... ugly. Anything over about 6 knots in the dark, by any boat within sight of civilization, should be ruled criminally negligent! Add a windshield and some instruments, and visibility is virtually nil.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 01:25:52

Here's some rather interesting accident statistics, particularly pages 21-27. Apparently, collisions with other vessels is the number one cause of boating deaths.

[url="http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2004.pdf"]USCG Boating Statistics 2004[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 08:05:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Here's some rather interesting accident statistics, particularly pages 21-27...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The pie chart on p.22 pretty much tells the story. ...although it's probably more of a correlation than a cause. Coast Guard/Power Squadron training is required to operate a boat in CT, although it sometimes seems like everyone's forgotten everything they "learned."

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/05/2006 08:08:39

jking
Navigator

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110 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 09:55:53

I'll bet that the factory deck light on the 250 could be used to illuminate the boat at anchor, in addition to the required anchor light. I wonder if it would be TOO bright?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 10:28:24

John,

No doubt the deck light would get the job done but if I recall, it is a high intensity bulb and likely has a heavy energy overhead.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 10:51:51

We are having the foredeck on our 25 modified to accommodate this:

http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2006/M134-Gatling-Livermore3feb06.htm

Just need a little practice at using

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 12:53:29

Frank had those glow in the dark cleats. Maybe add some other glow in the dark stuff.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 15:38:06

Hey Don
where did you find those LED rope lights?

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 16:49:10

Today's Latitude 38 has an update on the collision... apparently the most seriously injured passenger died from her injuries.

Rather than reprise the story... here's a link.

http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/LectronicLat.html

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 16:56:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Hey Don
where did you find those LED rope lights?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,...I just Googled "12V LED rope lights" and a bunch of links popped up. The picture is from a company called [url="http://www.ccl-light.com/docs/indoor/rope/index.html"]Consumers Choice Lighting[/url].

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 19:22:14

my experience so far is: Lakes tend to have concentrations of powerboaters that are inexperienced, drive too fast, have no idea of right of way, have little or no respect for other boaters.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 21:51:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 my experience so far is: Lakes tend to have concentrations of powerboaters that are inexperienced, drive too fast, have no idea of right of way, have little or no respect for other boaters.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Around here, they're reported on the VHF, and the Marine Police and USCG feast on them. I got stopped for not slowing down to idle speed (not just no-wake speed) for a rowing race I didn't know was happening.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/05/2006 21:53:34

duanewolff
Master Marine Consultant

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50022 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 21:55:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 my experience so far is: Lakes tend to have concentrations of powerboaters that are inexperienced, drive too fast, have no idea of right of way, have little or no respect for other boaters.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My experience is the same as yours and it extends to all bodies of water in this country.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 22:06:07

Whoa, Duane... 50,000 posts?!? This is a milestone of major proportions!

I stand in awe!

Edited by - on

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