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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/04/2007 : 07:53:59

Dear folks:

I know there are dozens of discussions on this matter in the archives, none of which, as I remember, have any definitive conclusion -- which, I suspect, is pretty much the answer -- to the hallowed question "Which Outboard?"

My 21 year old Mariner/Yamaha has bitten the dust -- mysteriously seized for no apparent reason in the fall, and my trusty mechanic says it's not cost effective to repair it. Now I get to get an XL shaft (the Mariner was 20") and a four stoke (the Mariner was 2). Yes, I've already ordered the four-spring Garhauer mount from Catalina Direct, so that piece is done.

There are only three 8 - 9.9 hp 25" outboards made: Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury; Yamaha; Honda. To sum up the gigabytes of forum discussion about outboards, my memory is something like this:

Tohatsu pros: lightest, generally cheapest, and can be ordered through onlineoutboards.com with a member discount. People who have bought them seem to like them. Cons: company doesn't have quite the history of Honda and Yamaha; fewer service centers near my boat (Urbanna, VA); does "lightest" mean "less well constructed?"

Yamaha pros: long and venerable history (including what's under the cover of my Mariner); about $ 100 more than the Tohatsu; a little lighter than the Honda. Cons: some disturbing reviews online; heaver than the Tohatsu; the closest and cheapest dealer here (Ed's Marine Superstore) really doesn't give a rip whether you buy something or not and has the same reputation for service; fewer discussions in this forum about buying/owning one (which could be good or bad).

Honda pros: more and more showing up on transoms; closest dealer to my boat; reputation for reliability (my CR-V just turned over 200K, not that it's an outboard); high-output generator (10 A). Cons: some disturbing stories here about problems starting and fuel clogging; about 25 lbs. heaver than the Tohatsu; significantly higher price (about 25%).

As with a fine meal, I don't mind paying for better service and better content. On the other hand, I don't want to spend $ 2K - $2.5K for a hamburger. So, here's my question: did I get the pros and cons above essentially right? Is there any enormously determinative factor missing in the equation? If you could turn back the clock, would any of you who have bought a Tohatsu/Yamaha/Honda in the last few years make a different decision now? (By the way, I know about the 8/9.9 hp issue -- that the motors are the same under the hood and can be altered. That's not my question.)

Thanks, friends. My hope is that this thread can sum up lots and lots of discussion over the last few years. That would be helpful to me, and maybe to a couple others as well.

Brooke

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 08:17:53

The first time I used the integrated shifter/throttle tiller on my Mercury I was more than pleasantly surprised and, after five years with it, there is no way I'd buy an outboard that didn't have it.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3478 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 08:18:46

Brooke,

I think you have it right.

I have a 2006 9.9 Honda 25" shaft. Works great. I run the motor dry each time I use it and most times put the stabilizing fluid in each fill up. Also, they supply a 3 gallon tank versus the 6 gallon that many may have had years ago. That means more frequent fillups but less old gas over time. The 4 strokes also have much better efficiency and so you go longer on a gallon of gas.

Another outboard I think is still sold is the regular Mercury 9.9hp. The weight on that unit is similar to the Yamaha and Hondas. Maybe a few pounds heavier. I think it is still sold in addition to the lighter Tohatsu/Mercury outboard.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 09:22:51

All the small Mercs are Tohatsus, but the Bigfoot models have different gearing in the lower unit.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 01/04/2007 10:27:19

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 10:13:11

You know that noise we all learned to make when we were kids, you wiggle your finger across your lips while blowing? I think over thinking things like motors gets us there. I just don't know how to type that sound. The integrated Yamaha shifter trick sounds way cool and I wish everyone did it but there are no Yamahas where I live. In the final analysis they are all good motors so service availability is probably the biggy.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 11:33:22

I got a new 8hp 4 stroke Merc this summer. True enough that the integrated handle is a joy - however, I've had too many problems already. After about 12 hrs running time, the low oil light came on, while we were motoring through a stiff head wind, and cut the 1/2 the RPMs. Next up, was scarier...while pulling out of the slip, I shifted into reverse from a low idle, the engine jumped into high revs and wouldn't shift back into neutral - almost crashed, full tilt, into a neighbor on the other side of the inlet, but was fortunately able at the last moment to force it into forward, but still at full RPMs, which reversed direction and avoided the collision. Once in the middle of the channel, I was able to shut it down.

Through trial and error, I learned that the handle had to be in the ‘up’ position to work properly. Thank fully, we were motoring to the marina where Whisper is stored this winter. As the motor is under warranty, I'm hoping the yard can work some magic and suss out the issue.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2007 : 17:56:36

When I bought my Honda 8 in 2002, the electric start Yamaha 4-stroke didn't have a pull starter--not even an emergency starter under the cowl. That tipped the balance for me. I liked the shifter on the tiller handle, but Honda's on the front was also a distinct improvement...

The only Tohatsu 4-stroke on the market then was the Mercury Bigfoot 9.9, which was considerably heavier and did not offer a 25" shaft--a certain deal-breaker. On top of all that, I knew and trusted the local Honda dealer. If you go Honda, save a few boat units and get the 8--the 9.9 is the same engine, and from my experience, you'll never need the other (mythical) 2 hp.

As for the weight of the Tohatsu, when I looked harder at that, it seemed that the 82 lbs that they published was for the manual-start short shaft with no alternator, and that the electric start XL version was probably around 100 lbs. (Honda's difference is 15 lbs just for the XL shaft.) If you go with the Tohatsu, from what's been said here, you might want the 3-spring bracket instead of the 4, so you don't have to stand on the engine to get it down. (Check some other threads on that.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/04/2007 17:59:58

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2007 : 00:19:47

I looked at the market three years ago and went with the XL, 9.9 Honda and the four spring bracket. My dealer offered me the 15 hp with all the extras at the same price of the 9.9 soooo. The 15 replaced the Chrysler Sailor with inboard controls and the controls fit the Honda. I can not only control the start, shift and throttle from the cockpit but also raise and lower the engine. It has been very reliable, fuel efficient and has dealers and on line support. We had it once suddenly slow to an idle and the alarm sounded which had us look at the engine and seaweed had wrapped it self over the water intakes. The outboard was shut off, raised, dumping the seaweed off then lowered and restarted then we continued our cruise. Very glad to have purchased the Honda. The Yamaha 9.9 was just a little more for the same features at our dealers and it would have been more difficult to attach to the inboard controls. Good engine hunting then go sailing.

Edited by - on

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2007 : 14:42:11

I have just replaced my 3 year old Honda 5hp 20" with a Honda 9.9hp 25" power thrust with electric start/trim tilt. I couldn't be happier. It is a vast performance difference and pushes the boat along at over 5 knots with ease in choppy consitions when I need it.

I stayed with the 5 longer than I should have done and now I have the 9.9 I wonder how I coped with a 5. Although heavy it doesn't seem to negatively affect the boat at all and fuel economy and starting are fine. Having the shift lever on the front is a great plus as well.

Cheers Jonathan

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2007 : 14:50:44

I'm very happy with my Tohatsu 9.8 XXL shaft from On Line outboards. Quiet, great MPG, at 98 lbs not too heavy, love the electric start, charging coil puts out lots of amps at low RPM. At $1875 it is MUCH cheaper. Also easy to clean the jets, set idle, adjust mixture (not so in the Honda or Yamaha). 3 year warranty.

Only negative is the tilt mechanism leaves a little to be desired (it works fine once you find the slots) and when tilted all the way up and heeling the boat over 40 degrees waves can hit the motor, lift it a little and unlatch it so it settles down into the water.

When heeling that much its better to lock it in the down position.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2007 : 15:32:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...and when tilted all the way up and heeling the boat over 40 degrees waves can hit the motor, lift it a little and unlatch it so it settles down into the water.

When heeling that much its better to lock it in the down position.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...or reef!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2007 : 16:19:41

I was in the Crew of Two around Catalina race, reefed, with my #2 jib. I was also leading.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2007 : 11:03:34

I really like my 2 stroke 2001 Tohatsu 8. Quiet, reliable and plenty of power. I do agree with Frank though, they're all good motors, so local service would be the most important issue for me.

Edited by - on

Aceguy
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 22:40:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 If you go with the Tohatsu, from what's been said here, you might want the 3-spring bracket instead of the 4, so you don't have to stand on the engine to get it down. (Check some other threads on that.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sure wish I would have researched this more before I installed my brand new 4-spring bracket with the backer plates (not taking that thing off again) and mounted my brand new Tohatsu 9.8 xxl w/ electric start on it. I have to do a balancing act on it whenever I want to put it in the water. It sure comes up and out nice and easy, though! anyone ever cut a spring off of a 4-spring and turn it into a 3-spring?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 08:03:42

Give it a season, it will probably lose some of its vigor of youth.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 08:04:33

Eric,
I have the 4 spring and the Tohatsu 8 (same motor as the 9.8) as well and have to step on it. It's a bit of a pain but you get used to it and yes, it pops up and out in a hurry when you're ready.It Doesn't bother me enough to operate on it. Sure would love to have a shifter on the front of the motor though. Dave

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 08:16:39

Instead of cutting one of the springs, I wonder if it would be possible to just disengage one of them by popping the end of the spring from the arm.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:02:18

I'd wait before doing any mods on the 4 spring bracket. My experience is that the stainless springs tend to weaken a little bit over time.

I wonder why some mfg doesn't come up with a design using stout rubber 'bungies' to provide the lift assist. The owner could easily add or remove them to get the 'perfect' balance desired.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 13:07:29

By the way, I'm leaning towards the Yamaha. I'd love to buy a Honda, but the cheapest I can find is from Defender in CT, for a thousand dollars more than the Yamaha, which is a hundred dollars more than the Tohatsu -- and that would require me to drive to CT. to pick it up (they don't ship outboards). Yamaha dealers are closer than Tohatsu dealers and shops; my last Yamaha gave me 21 years; I like the Yamaha design a little better and the higher output generator.

I know Hondas are great, but 50% better than Yamaha and Tohatsu? That thousand dollars is more than I can spare, especially with a kid in college and trying to pay thirty years of mortgage in 10 years!

Brooke

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3478 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 13:36:31

I have a 2006 9.9hp XL Shaft Honda since last February. It is excellent. Quiet, works great at slow speeds as well when coming back to the marina - same in reverse when backing into my slip.

I believe in Hondas. My cars have been Hondas thru the years as well. The coast Guard in the Wash DC area also has Hondas - 2 on each of their craft. I asked them how they like theres the one time they boarded me last year and they said they have been great.

But the other motor choices are fine as well and they each have their supporters. Go with your gut feeling and...good luck !

One thing , by the way, is also to consider where and how easy to get it serviced if need be - How close to your area ?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 14:19:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 ...the cheapest I can find is from Defender in CT, for a thousand dollars more than the Yamaha, which is a hundred dollars more than the Tohatsu...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Huh?? At Defender, the 25" electric start Honda 8 is $2527, while the 25" electric start Tohatsu 9.8 is $2092, or $435 less at the same store. (It's a few bucks less at Onlineoutboards.com.) Now, you could say 9.8 is more hp than 8, but I promise the Honda 8 Power Thrust has more than you'll ever use or need. With Tohatsu, I believe you need to go to 9.8 to get 25" and electric start. I have no current info on Yamaha, but when I bought my Honda 8, a comparable Yamaha 4-stroke was a little heavier, a few bucks more expensive, and had NO ROPE STARTER (even under the cowl).

I'm not arguing against either of the other motors--just wondering about your data. Is the Yammie you're pricing the 4-stroke? (They're also about the last of the 2-stroke makers.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/01/2007 14:22:12

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 16:40:01

I misquoted or Defender dropped the prices this week -- the Honda 9.9 25" electric start http://www.defender.com/outboards-price-list.html is $ 2787 if I drive to Connecticut to get it.

The Yamaha 4 stroke 25" electric five miles away from me http://edsmarinesuperstore.com/yamaha.htm is $ 2100.

The Chesapeake can get pretty nasty, and I want all the horsepower I can get.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 02/01/2007 16:41:22

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 21:23:46

Get the Yammie--a local dealer is worth a lot (IMHO) and Yammie 4-strokes are very nice engines. But for whoever else is pondering... the Honda 8 is exactly the same engine, drive line, and prop as the 9.9, except the 8 has a cam that gives it a little more low-end torque and while the 9.9 gets a little more high-rpm hp (which will only cause cavitation on a C-25 if you rev it that high). Long Island Sound can be every bit as nasty as the Chesapeake, and the Honda 8, for at least $260 less than the 9.9 (for marketing purposes), is more than you need on either. I doubt that I ran it past about 2/3 throttle even once.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/01/2007 21:28:16

Dustysailz
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2007 : 07:56:56

Brooke, I repowered last summer. I went through the same agaonizing questions that you are now wading through. After much research, and local shopping at Yamaha and Honda delaers, I decided on the Nissan, 9.9 XL shaft, with electric/manual start. Having used it the remain
der of the last season, it was a great choice. I expect it will be the last motor I need to install. It also came from onlineoutboards. Good luck.

Edited by - on

Aceguy
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2007 : 13:06:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 I'd wait before doing any mods on the 4 spring bracket. My experience is that the stainless springs tend to weaken a little bit over time.

I wonder why some mfg doesn't come up with a design using stout rubber 'bungies' to provide the lift assist. The owner could easily add or remove them to get the 'perfect' balance desired.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't care about it enough to operate on it, I guess I just wondered if anyone ever had. My wife does make fun of me when I have to step on it to get it down, though. Shey says "I don't think that's normal hon, are you sure you installed it right?" To which I of coure reply, "of course I installed it right! How could you even question me!"

I think the bungee idea would be really cool.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2007 : 19:54:57

Well, I thought I'd wrap this up by relaying what decision I finally made. Today I picked up, installed on the boat, and test motored a new 9.9 Honda electric start XL shaft outboard. I got a terrific price at Brown's Marine in Deltaville, VA, which is about 20 miles from my dock -- the closest dealer/service point. The motor was about 10% less than Defender's prices, and I didn't have to drive to Connecticut to get it (and Defender's prices are better than other Honda dealers I checked). They set up the motor, ran it in, and gave me instructions before loading it in my truck.

The four-spring Garhauer mount (from Catalina Direct) is perfectly counterbalanced for the motor -- much less work raising and lowering the motor than my 2-stroke Mariner on a Garelick mount. The Honda tilts with astounding ease -- the first time I tilted it, I pulled hard, expecting it to be difficult, and almost lost my balance in the cockpit because it was so easy.

The motor is astoundingly quiet and powerful -- hull speed at about half throttle.

I'm delighted.

Thanks for all the advice.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 05/25/2007 20:02:54

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