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Sailing Characteristics Swing vs Wing vs Fin

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 09/22/2007 : 17:12:27

Is there a significant difference in the sailing characteristics between the swing, wing, and fin keel? I know the wing will not point as high but which boat is faster on the different points of sail and is the speed difference significant. Can the speed differences be made up with better sails or sailing ability?

If you had your choice, which keel would you buy or does it really make that much difference.

Thanks,
GaryB

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 09/22/2007 17:14:17

John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 18:39:04

Careful Gary, I asked this question about a year ago and so far, it's cost me about 20 large!

I bought a wing keel C250. I looked at C25s. In some ways, I actually like the C25 with all of its teak and bulkheads better than the C250. In fact, I lovingly refer to Kaija as having all the charm of a plastic bucket when compared to the C25. But, she's the right boat for me.

I wanted a fixed keel over a swing because I realized that I probably would not really trailer the boat as much as I might think. A swing keel is one more system that requires maintenance. A catastrophic failure of that system would likely be truly catastrophic for the boat. IMO, the only advantage of the swinger is trailerability. If I wasn't going to do that, why bother. Remember, trailer sailors have to include rigging and de-rigging time in their day. I go to the slip, untie the boat and sail. I think it results in more sailing over all.

I wanted a newer boat over an older boat because of the maintenance issues. I'm neither inclined toward nor capable of a lot of the things that get discussed on this forum. I delayed buying my boat for 30 years. I want to sail, not work on a sailboat. A fin on a 250 isn't an option.

If I were to buy a '80's vintage C25, I'd buy a fin.

Edited by - John Russell on 09/22/2007 19:05:20

Chris Z
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Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 19:43:03

Gary,

I think that there are many many factors that go into the decision on which type. First would be salt or fresh. If salt, I wouldn't go with the swing. Then depth and performance play a factor. Also, if you are going to handle trailering yourself. I took mine out next week very easy, and this was due to the roller trailer and swing keel. I also agree with John regarding maintenance. I like doing the little (and big) things to the boat. I would place the things you think are important in this post and I am sure we can help you decide. Please include as much detail as you can come up with on your needs.

Of course when I bought mine, the fact that it was only six miles from my house was a big factor. Although for me the swing is a better fit, I would have bought it even if it was a wing.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 19:50:42

I'm going to be sailing in a fresh water lake that probably averages 80 - 100 feet deep. Most of the time I will be out just sailing but may someday want to race for fun. I've heard the wing keels are the slowest of the three types of boats. Any opinions on that subject?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

GaryB

Edited by - GaryB on 09/22/2007 19:51:33

JimB517
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 10:09:37

I have a fin standard rig, Gary has a wing tall rig. Our boats are very, very close in performance. I can out point the wing slightly, he can sail downwind faster (but some of that is due to his skill). On the tall rig with his 110 jib and me with my 135 we can sail side by side for hours and hours.

I believe the swing may point slightly higher than the fin.

If racing, go for the fin. Otherwise, in your lake, any of the boats would do fine. A wing commands a higher resale value, it is seen as being the best.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 11:30:07

GaryB, The swing is faster to weather (points a wee bit higher, tacks faster and does not develop as much leeway), the fixed keel (it really isn't a "fin" as it's about 5' long and 4.5' deep) is faster downwind. I've never raced against a wing so have no opinions on that one. All the keel types carry the same PHRF rating but obviously the SR is slower than the TR (unless the wind is howling!)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 11:43:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...A wing commands a higher resale value, it is seen as being the best.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I suspect that's because it makes trailering a reasonable option, without presenting the maintenance issues and risks of the swinger. Note also that it appeared on later models, which also have some other notable improvements. The C-25 wing is very short (vertically) compared to most, including the C-250's. Catalina introduced it to replace the swing for boats that would be trailered, and it's only a couple of inches deeper than the fully-raised swing.

I, too, suspect the swing has the best upwind pointing and performance by a very narrow margin over the fin because it has about a foot more draft. Downwind, the wing has a narrow margin because of less drag. Over the entire racecourse, the three probably average out about even. I preferred the fin for my purposes--the boat was slipped in a town "club" and stored at a boatyard. I chose the C-25 (instead of something a little bigger) because it fit into the rather tight slip.

BTW, Regarding John's comments, the C-250 is a whole different story--it has either a deeper wing or a centerboard (with water ballast)--not a "swing keel" (which is the ballast).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/23/2007 11:45:36

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 13:10:44

So would everyone agree that overall that the handling characteristics of one type keel really doesn't have a distinct advantage over another and that the skill level of the sailor could balance out the differences?

More questions:
1. In relation to a fixed keel would a wing keel heel more in the same wind and if so is it a lot more?
2. Roughly how many degrees higher can the fixed keel point than a wing keel?

I'm asking all the questions because I really wanted a late model fixed keel but I've located an '89 wing keel in nice condition on Lake Travis and I'm just trying to decide if the differences in the two keels warrant waiting longer to find the fixed keel. There haven't been many late model boats coming up for sale in the past 3 months.

Also, what would be considered a good price to pay for a fresh water only '89 wing keel with no trailer in the Austin, TX area? It's got one headsail on a roller furler and some other nice additions. Bottom job is good and the motor is a middle age 9.9 Honda.

Thanks everyone for your input!
GaryB

Edited by - GaryB on 09/23/2007 13:13:12

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 14:15:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">1. In relation to a fixed keel would a wing keel heel more in the same wind and if so is it a lot more?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Without having sailed the wing, I'd say a little more but not a lot. The wing puts a lot of weight at the bottom of the keel.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2. Roughly how many degrees higher can the fixed keel point than a wing keel?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jim B. is probably your best source. But a key question is whether your principal interest is racing. If not, the wing will take you where you want to go, and the '89 will do it in style. The '89-90 C-25 is to me the nicest trailerable, outboard auxiliary 25-footer Catalina or just about anyone else has ever made, and is measurably nicer inside than all of the earlier vintages. Unfortunately, she turned out to be too expensive to build and too heavy for the then weakening market for "big" trailerable boats. The wing probably makes a better investment, because it makes her much more trailerable than the fin (even if you don't plan to trailer her). So, unless you want that last little edge for racing, I'd say go for it. Local markets vary... With no trailer, I'm guessing she should get around 10 in most areas, and that number should hold up for a while.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/23/2007 14:16:38

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 16:13:03

I have not participated in races but being out at same time and kind of following a long for awhile, the wing keel with old sails does fairly decent downwind. But when tacking close to the wind, the first issue is the old sails which being blown out will not let the boat go as close to the wind and lower speed compared to the other boats. But recently, I took off my old 110 furling rigged jib and replaced with same vintage 150 Genoa which although as old, was not used as much by the PO. I would say I was able to point at least 1-2 degrees better with the better conditioned sail. Soon I will be buying new sails and that should improve performance quite a bit.

I think there are many factors to be considered. The wing keel probably does not point as well when close to the wind but believe it is pretty fast downwind. One big issue is how old the sails are since in races, you are going to see plenty with fairly new sails and regardless of what Catalina you buy...the sails alone will probably dictate how you will perform.

My '89 TR Wing Keel w/o trailer and a fincky '94 Honda motor cost $9750. I have made many improvements since buying it back in Fall '05. The biggys were a solar panel in winter '05, new motor & bracket in Feb '06, new mast wiring/switch panel/fans/battery charger in winter 06/07 and sometime this Fall, it will be new sails.

The wing keel draft is about 2'10" and no moving parts. So...low draft and less potential mtn.

Edited by - OLarryR on 09/23/2007 16:18:39

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 19:02:40

Well this confirms my first thought that the boat is worth around $10K give or take a little for condition and equipment. I offered $10K the first time and got laughed at. I guess I need to negotiate more as we're currently at $11.5K and in a stalemate. I'm not going any higher and he's not going any lower. Guess I'll walk away and look somewhere else.

Thank you everyone for your input!

Gary

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 20:06:43

This is in Kemah and I'm not up to date on my Texas geography but i think you could consider it a close market.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?boat_id=1766963& checked_boats=1766963& ybw=& units=Feet& access=Public& listing_id=1523& url=

She looks like she's very well maintained. The price might be right. It comes down to what you're willng to pay. She's the only '89 currently listed on yachtworld other than one that was damaged in some kind of explosion. $11,5k might be the number for one in Austin.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 20:23:13

That's a nice looking boat! One question though, why do you think the headsail is so far up the furler?

Gary

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 20:57:15

Not enuf info there... No mention of trailer (~$2K), TR vs SR, vintage of sails, engine, etc... The price is probably "reaching". But it's an indication of what sellers in TX think, and makes 11.5 look better.

I wonder if the the boat is a tall rig and the jib is from a standard...

That or they just wanted very good visibility.

Regarding the 11.5 boat, have you seen her in the flesh? What comparable boats are on the market around there? 11 might not be unreasonable, and in that market she might hold that value well. (Of course, you'll put some serious "boat units" into her before re-selling, so "value retention" is a nebulous concept.) At some point, you need to decide what you want among what's available and whether you really want to go for it. As some have said, when you buy a cheaper boat, you'll have to put more into her. The '89 C-25, reasonably cared for, is a quality investment as boats go. Are you prepared to hold out for a grand or so to end up with something of less quality that will probably be harder to sell later?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/23/2007 21:00:47

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 21:35:33

The '89 listed in the above post is a tall rig wing keel. Not sure of the motors vintage. No trailer.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/23/2007 : 21:43:55

Found this boat earlier today in the Kemah, TX area just south of Houston. It's an '82 model fin keel for $5,900.00. Been in salt most of it's life.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/scatalina25157.html

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 06:36:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Found this boat earlier today in the Kemah, TX area just south of Houston. It's an '82 model fin keel for $5,900.00. Been in salt most of it's life.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/scatalina25157.html
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This seems like a better boat for you. Buy it, go sailing.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 08:33:47

Why do you say that?

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Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 09:51:38

Because the last month's worth of your posts have shown that you are not willing to buy the 89, so you need to move on and buy a boat that you are willing to pay for. In the older boats the fin is the nicer interior and it sails better, feels better at the dock and requires far less maintenance.
The 89 needs to go to someone who understands why it costs more, you have repeatedly stated that you do do not think it is worth the money. Several of us have explained on various threads of yours why the 89 is special, you have not valued those explanation enough to buy the 89. It is worth the money they are asking, someone who understands that will buy it.
All boats require thousands of dollars after purchase, the 82 will make that easier for you. Buy a boat, go sailing.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 10:47:30

Gary,

I think you are taking the time to think this one out and...well I know I tend to be impulsive. So...that is a good trait to ponder the decision as to what to offer. You are the money man and in control. So...believe you are getting good responses dialing in what it costs for an '89 and therabouts.

When I bought mine for $9750, believe I got a good price for it back in Fall '05. But I also bought it with the feeling that I would be potentially replacing the motor which is another ~ $2000 plus...but then it's a new motor ! So that is the good ! The owner was asking $10500 and was about to get it ready for winterizing (taking the motor off, etc). The owner was seriously ill and so there was that to contend with as well. I felt the boat was in excellent condition overall (motor finicky probably needed adjustment but I sized it up as maybe needing replacement). My bargaining chip was that i was prepared to pay in full and they would then not have to be concerned with it as they had other issues at the time and...since I would be taking over right away, then they would not be faced with the month to month docking fees that they were paying and likely to have paid thru the winter.

I think this is an excellent time for you to be looking..with those wanting to sell a boat and facing a winter where they may not be using it or very little and some may have to additionally pay for the winter storage...and insurance. This then is an opportunity where they may lower the price substantially.

Keep looking around or talk some more with that '89 owner. maybe he is facing addl costs this winter and will come around to lowering his price. If not.. keep looking around. Interesting to find out what you come up with !

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 10:51:31

I don't appreciate your response!

Money doesn't grow on trees at my house as it does at others so I'm trying to make an informed decision by asking questions about a boat that I'm not familiar with.

In addition you don't know all the facts that I'm dealing with.

I won't ask anymore questions

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 11:32:35

Hey Gary... Frank is known, like me, to be something of a curmudgeon here...

Don't take his shot too much to heart. If you knew how much I spent to build my new boat, you'd understand why I tend not to be as sensitive to the difference between the prices of those two... but my circumstances (which have changed several times) are undoubtedly quite different from yours. I will submit, however, that the cost to you over the next ten years will be essentially the same, whichever one you chose.

Probably the best way to understand the differences between an '89 and an '82 is to actually climb into and around them. Their sailing qualities are virtually identical, except for the difference between the tall and standard (the '82 looks like a standard to me) rigs. A tall has a speed advantage in light air, and when reefed becomes the approximate equivalent of a standard rig in heavier air, at which point they sail about equally. So, the key is how you feel about them, in the flesh. We can only go so far here in helping you to understand the subtle differences.

But keep asking! We'll keep answering.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 11:40:58

One more thing... As you may or may not already know, the boom on the tall rig is a foot lower, and somewhat of a head-knocker compared to the standard (which I could stand under). A bimini therefore fits much better under the standard rig. If you want to race, the TR is the one to have. Otherwise, you might enjoy the SR more as a "starter-cruiser", as I did. (I also note that the '82's sails sound pretty good.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/24/2007 11:42:53

Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 12:13:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I don't appreciate your response!

Money doesn't grow on trees at my house as it does at others so I'm trying to make an informed decision by asking questions about a boat that I'm not familiar with.

In addition you don't know all the facts that I'm dealing with.

I won't ask anymore questions
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No offense intended, the goal here is to help people get sailing. The 82 looks like a good value on a good boat. The 89 does not justify itself to you so you should stop considering it. I apologize if I offended you. Most of us have very limited means, it is one reason we are drawn to the Catalina 25, it is a great value regardless of which one you buy. I hope you will continue to use this forum.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 12:22:17

Just so it's known by everyone, I truly do appreciate the responses everyone has offered. I really didn't know much at all about the C25 before I started asking questions on this forum.

When I first started looking for a boat I was looking at C22's. My new wife took one look at the size of the interior and said no way she would spend the night on the boat. She suggested we look for a bigger boat! Darn the luck! :) She's awesome! We spent two days on our honeymoon in early August looking for a boat! I may be the luckiest man on earth!

Of course if I get a boat the paybacks will be huge! I can live with that! :)

The '89 is a tall rig and is in good condition but from what I understand the owner is not hurting for money in any way, shape, or form. To give you an idea of what I'm up against he was asking $16K earlier this year.

I've been on an '83 recently that was in solid condition and I've been on this '89. There are definite advantages in the '89!

It doesn't help when someone bought an '89 fin keel in the same town about two weeks ago for a little over $8K. It looks exactly like the boat I'm looking at except it's a fixed keel. Same condition inside and out! That's what's making this so challenging and I'm getting tired of looking.

Much to everyone's relief I should have a final resolution on the '89 this coming weekend. I'll either buy it or walk on it!

Thanks again to everyone!

Edited by - GaryB on 09/24/2007 12:23:50

tight
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Response Posted - 09/24/2007 : 13:38:13

I, too, am trying to make the same decision. I currently sail a C22 but am wanting to get a C25, probably about 1988-1991, tall rig w/wing keel, (I think) - tall rig because we like to race and wing keel for trailerability. Also, the C22 gets pretty cramped when my wife and I go cruising for a week or so, so more room would be a big plus.

My question is now which one to get, a later model wing keel or an older model swing keel. We cruise usually twice a year at the coast but the rest of the time we are fresh water, lake sailors. I've noticed that the Portsmouth number for the wing is higher than for the fin or swing keel. Is it really that much slower? Does it not point as well? I want to be competitive while racing but I also want to be able to launch and retrieve without a whole lot of hassle. Any advice anyone can give?

Thanks,
Bill Hurni
C22 Rubber Duckie

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